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Greycap Leader

30th December 2005, 18:08

CORGI! I WANT A TSR2 AND I WANT ONE NOW!!!!!!!!!

Who's with me, we have got the Lightning and the Harrier and now we want the TSR2!!

G-force

30th December 2005, 18:26

Even above an F.Mk.6 Lightning, I would love a TSR.2, but really, what are the chances of that happening?

Greycap Leader

30th December 2005, 18:32

Even above an F.Mk.6 Lightning, I would love a TSR.2, but really, what are the chances of that happening?

Hi GF
They only need to make one! I would happily pay 40 nicker for it. You seem to know your jets and I know that Airfix have just produced a kit of the TSR2, but I would have to have the diecast one. Plastic ones don't make the same noise if you drop them ha ha

G-force

30th December 2005, 18:41

NeilD

30th December 2005, 18:45

yep, 2 hopes.. Bob Hope and No Hope... :rolleyes:

Neil

planejunky

30th December 2005, 18:45

TSR2, how many schemes would you get from that very expensive casting? Three white ones, and lots of "what ifs"!

There are some models that will never be made in diecast, and it's fair to say that TSR2 is one of them. I agree it would be nice, but it's all about pure economics, and how many collectors would seriously want one anyway? ;)

Greycap Leader

30th December 2005, 18:49

I know there are a couple of schemes, and even more fantasy schemes, but it isn't that well known a bird, and it didn't even make production. It would take nothing short of a miracle to make Corgi produce one. You do know you can buy a diecast 1/144 don't you?

http://www.collectorsaircraft.com/ECOM_Detail.asp?ID=1590

It has got to be 1/72 GF and I will not accept nothing else! My dad was a young boy about the tome the TSR2 was being developed and he has always said that this aircraft would have been a WORLD-BEATER! We could have sold it to the Yanks, and the Ruskies would have been s**t scarred of it but as you know the story due to high costs, they scrapped it and they made the RAF use the F1 11 as a replacement. Sad really, because our boys never get the equipment that they deserve.

Agent X20

30th December 2005, 18:55

TSR2, how many schemes would you get from that very expensive casting? Three white ones, and lots of "what ifs"!
Put me down for the orange Braniff one..

.. they certainly never got the F111 as a replacement.. BAC 111 but not F111.. :D

shuttle

30th December 2005, 19:00

It would be a big model as well in 1/72 but I have to agree, got more chance of a 1/72 Javelin or Swift from Corgi as the next 'early' RAF jet.

:) Shuttle

G-force

30th December 2005, 19:05

It would be a big model as well in 1/72 but I have to agree, got more chance of a 1/72 Javelin or Swift from Corgi as the next 'early' RAF jet.

:) Shuttle

Now you're talking!!!

planejunky

30th December 2005, 19:17

The Swift would made a great model! ;)

Roger

30th December 2005, 19:17

.. they certainly never got the F111 as a replacement.. BAC 111 but not F111.. :D
The F-111 was cancelled also even as the first of the RAF order was coming off the production line. We made do with the Buccaneer until we got Tornado.
I can't say that I'm all that into the TSR2. It seems to have generated a huge ammount of interest, so much so that Airfix are about to release a 1/72 kit and Hannants did several "what if" decal sets for it. For all the reasons already stated, this will never see the light of day in a Corgi model (they also told me the same about a Sea Fury when I met the Corgi chaps earlier this year :( ) so it's Airfix or bust I think for all you TSR2 fans out there. ;) :)

scaleplanes

30th December 2005, 19:19

It has got to be 1/72 GF and I will not accept nothing else! My dad was a young boy about the tome the TSR2 was being developed and he has always said that this aircraft would have been a WORLD-BEATER! We could have sold it to the Yanks, and the Ruskies would have been s**t scarred of it but as you know the story due to high costs, they scrapped it and they made the RAF use the F1 11 as a replacement. Sad really, because our boys never get the equipment that they deserve.

I'm glad the TSR2 got cancelled, as great a plane as it was. Just think of all the a/c that wouldn't have entered service if it hadn't been. No Buccaneer, no RAF Phantom, no Jaguar, no Lightning (as there was a planed fighter version of the TSR2) no Harrier cos the RAF didn't want it anyway (and considering the expense of TSR2, would have got their way) and finally no Tornado!

NeilD

30th December 2005, 19:19

It has got to be 1/72 GF and I will not accept nothing else! My dad was a young boy about the tome the TSR2 was being developed and he has always said that this aircraft would have been a WORLD-BEATER! We could have sold it to the Yanks, and the Ruskies would have been s**t scarred of it but as you know the story due to high costs, they scrapped it and they made the RAF use the F1 11 as a replacement. Sad really, because our boys never get the equipment that they deserve.

maybe, maybe not, its one of lifes great 'what-if' questions... worth having a look at this thread over on Flypast, some interesting info/comments
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51676

Mmmm 1/72 javelin... put me down for one of them!! :D

Neil

shuttle

30th December 2005, 19:25

if the Corgi 'Chaps' counted out a Sea Fury then they might be a bit worried when Witty produce there rumoured one. If they can do a decent version then it will be a big seller (like a Javelin)!

On second thoughts, maybe they won't! However, I have no complaints with what they have produced so far in terms of RAF aircraft. Bring on a Halifax, Beaufighter, Typhoon (both versions) and a Javelin!!!

:D Shuttle

kevjb64

30th December 2005, 19:25

(they also told me the same about a Sea Fury when I met the Corgi chaps earlier this year :( )

Good for you , more people should visit patients in mental hospital , it cheers them up no end apparently . :rolleyes: :D

Grizzly Adams

30th December 2005, 19:43

Yeah you want a TSR and i want Sandra Bullock flying a Ta 152 naked in my living room singing Dirrty by Christina Aguilera. It just isn't gonna happen :D

/switches on dream mode.

Grizz

kevjb64

30th December 2005, 19:50

Yeah you want a TSR and i want Sandra Bullock flying a Ta 152 naked in my living room singing Dirrty by Christina Aguilera. It just isn't gonna happen :D

/switches on dream mode.

Grizz

What scale were you thinking of this die cast Sandra Bullock in , perhaps a new line for Corgi ? :rolleyes: :D

sniperUK

30th December 2005, 20:40

Surely Corgi are releasing two TSR2 models at least this year both in genuine FAA markings :D :D :D

G-force

30th December 2005, 20:47

I'm glad the TSR2 got cancelled, as great a plane as it was. Just think of all the a/c that wouldn't have entered service if it hadn't been. No Buccaneer, no RAF Phantom, no Jaguar, no Lightning (as there was a planed fighter version of the TSR2) no Harrier cos the RAF didn't want it anyway (and considering the expense of TSR2, would have got their way) and finally no Tornado!

Yes, but Britain would still have an aviation industry!!!!

Agent X20

30th December 2005, 20:51

Yeah you want a TSR and i want Sandra Bullock naked in my living room Grizzkin good post..... can you send her round after shes finished yer housework... :D

Only thing we would have lost if the TSR2 had gone ahead would have been the Phantom... most of that other stuff predates the TSR2 and if you are comparing TSR2's against Tornys.... ha.!

planejunky

30th December 2005, 21:02

Yes, but Britain would still have an aviation industry!!!!

Britain still does have a aviation industry, it's just a different industry to what it was back in the day.

Britain was a partner nation in the Concorde, Jaguar, Tornado, and now the Typhoon. Lets not forget the hundreds of other British firms that provide parts and technology not only for Eurofighter and Airbus Industrie, but for the US aircraft industry (F-35 JSF for example) and NASA.

Long gone are days when one country can afford produce it's own military aircraft, (ok there's the French Rafale program, but look at the financial problems that country now faces regarding pensions etc) partnerships have been the way forward for decades. Even Sweden's Gripen project has a US engine license built by Volvo, and a serious financial input from BAE Systems.

Agent X20

30th December 2005, 21:03

Aint Volvo Ford anyway....?

Grizzly Adams

30th December 2005, 21:05

What scale were you thinking of this die cast Sandra Bullock in , perhaps a new line for Corgi ? :rolleyes: :D

The diecast would the plane natch ;) , Sandra would be the flesh to tempt the soul and loins! And Agent, you think i'm gonna share? Your more sozzled than i thought you were! :D

As to a TSR, i'd be so surprised if it happened, christ we can't even get a VC10 outta these people!

Agent X20

30th December 2005, 21:09

Read my post....!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I said "after" shes finished your housework.... :D :D :D

and please give it a rest .. we gonna see Sandra and a VC10.... sod that I'm off to do the lottery.. better odds..... :D Happy New Year... more Merlot Matron..!! :o :o :o

scaleplanes

30th December 2005, 21:26

Only thing we would have lost if the TSR2 had gone ahead would have been the Phantom... most of that other stuff predates the TSR2 and if you are comparing TSR2's against Tornys.... ha.! [/SIZE]

Jag started life as a French advanced trainer, the RAF needed a strike plane to cover the shortfalls of the Phantom so joined the programe. TSR 2 would have soldiered on till the late 90's so no Tornado. A fighter version TSR2 would have been superior to the Lightning, so that would have got the chop early and as I said, the RAF never wanted Harrier, it was forced on them. The cost of TSR2 would have been a good argument not to have it.

Agent X20

30th December 2005, 22:33

Greycap Leader

30th December 2005, 23:09

A lot of stuff should have got the chop soomer than it did in reality.. there again we did think that we were progressing or there was progression to be had.... in reality pound for pound ( as in lb) the best value for money we ever had was from the late forties early fifties stuff.. TSR2 should have been an addition to, rather than a replacement for... it was of course the time we should have sold our expertise.. but no one bought it.. most took bribes instead...

I think you are missing the point lads;

"The British Aircraft Corporation's TSR.2 strike aircraft was to be the RAF's foremost combat aircraft for the 1960's onwards. It was to replace the Canberra in a role which is currently being filled by the Tornado. Various countries worldwide expressed an interest in purchasing the TSR.2 and these overseas airforces are represented. The aircraft was to have supersonic capability at tree-top height (a modified version of its terrain following radar and avionics was later used in the Tornado strike aircraft) and it was the first aircraft in the World to be equipped with a Head-Up-Display (HUD).

A fighter version of the TSR.2 was also considered (albeit briefly) and this is also represented. Unfortunately politics interfered and the TSR.2 project was scrapped in 1964, but not before test pilot Roland Beaumont had given us a tantalising glimpse of its performance. On its final flight he fired up one afterburner and out run a Lightning fighter using both its afterburners!"

We will never know how good this aircraft woud have been and I think that anything that could out run a lightning on one afterburner has got to be the Bees knees. Oh and by the way my other favourite jet is the Lightning.

Agent X20

30th December 2005, 23:22

.. and what was your point...???

I dont remember the plane being available to anyone but the RAF..... (these were the days when the observers book of aircraft wouldnt give specs as they were still top secret..)

all these silly 'could have been' schemes are as fcking annoying as the Concorde schemes that have 'surfaced' ...as if the stards had put their hands in their pockets for Concorde and bought it instead of fighting her as she were not Yankee....... she would not be mothballed.. grrr..!!

scaleplanes

30th December 2005, 23:30

.. and what was your point...???

I dont remember the plane being available to anyone but the RAF..... (these were the days when the observers book of aircraft wouldnt give specs as they were still top secret..)

I couldn't see a point either agent

I believe the TSR2 was offered to Austrailia but Mountbaton stuck the knife in by promoting the Buccaneer as a cheaper (4 for the price of 1) alternative.

Greycap Leader

30th December 2005, 23:36

.. and what was your point...???

I thought it was obvious, I'm proud of what the British Aviation industry have acheived and think what it could have acheived. I think Corgi should make a model of the TSR2, that was why this thread was started in the first place.

It would be a top seller. They would sell six to my hosehold alone, my dad, brother and me.

Agent X20

30th December 2005, 23:44

I couldn't see a point either agent

I believe the TSR2 was offered to Austrailia but Mountbaton stuck the knife in by promoting the Buccaneer as a cheaper (4 for the price of 1) alternative.

These young puppies... :D

At least the Aussies got their F111's..!!

Think you had to have been around at the time... this and the Belfast IMHO took so long to come to fruition.. ok the Labour Gov. killed off the TSR2.. well it was either that or Concorde...and the C130 killed off the Belfast.. think the RAF got bored waiting for the latter..

scaleplanes

31st December 2005, 00:06

These young puppies... :D

At least the Aussies got their F111's..!!

Think you had to have been around at the time... this and the Belfast IMHO took so long to come to fruition.. ok the Labour Gov. killed off the TSR2.. well it was either that or Concorde...and the C130 killed off the Belfast.. think the RAF got bored waiting for the latter..

What killed the TSR2 was English Electric and Vickers not talking to each other ( the plane was designed by E.E. but the gov. gave the design lead to Vickers, that and the RAF making new demands on the a/c, the final straw being self starting. This all sent the price soaring and the Gov. pulled the plug. You could also do some digging and see if any of the Labour ministers had links with the 1st National Bank who had put all their clients money into the F-111!

planejunky

31st December 2005, 00:39

It would be a top seller. They would sell six to my hosehold alone, my dad, brother and me.

Top seller, I very much doubt it. Look at some of the great models that have hit the dump bins over last year or so. Corgi are in business to make a profit, castings are extremely expensive so the more schemes they have for a single casting the better. The Spitfire Mk Vb is a great example of this, as was the Lightning, Buccaneer, Bf-109, and Hurricane, all essentially the same casting in lots of colour schemes. For a model to pay for itself, it needs to a) have appeal among the majority of collectors, and b) be able to be produced in lots of different markings and colour schemes.

TSR2 was Anti-flash white, Anti-flash white and er... Anti-flash white! Sure you could do some "what if" schemes, but what are you going to do about external stores? Many weapons, pods, and external fuel tanks would have been designed especially for TSR2 prior to entry into service (as they were with the Tornado), but given that TSR2 didn't even get past the early test phase, let alone get into service, it would all be pure guess work.

With the greatest respect, only a madman would stake that much money on a diecast casting of TSR2 , it's doubtful that it wouldn't even break even. No, much better they plough their money into something with mass appeal such as British Spey Phantoms, or Hawker Typhoons.

DCRanger

31st December 2005, 01:11

..... Sure you could do some "what if" schemes, but what are you going to do about external stores? Many weapons, pods, and external fuel tanks would have been designed especially for TSR2 prior to entry into service (as they were with the Tornado), but given that TSR2 didn't even get past the early test phase, let alone get into service, it would all be pure guess work.
Given that there are a lot of people that are more than happy to buy Star Wars figures and models, and such like which are total fantasy why not "what if schemes". OK you are going to upset a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't sell?

If Corgi were to do one authentic model would the purist be happy (or least less unhappy) if it was subsidised by a series of "what if" schemes?

DannyBoy76

31st December 2005, 03:58

Then they could do an Avro Arrow too...

charley

31st December 2005, 05:51

With the greatest respect, only a madman would stake that much money on a diecast casting of TSR2 , it's doubtful that it wouldn't even break even. No, much better they plough their money into something with mass appeal such as British Spey Phantoms, or Hawker Typhoons.

12000 odd Airfix buyers cant be wrong though? but i agree a bold move but i think one that would pay. even if RRP was higher...

Typhoon-MKV

31st December 2005, 07:13

12000 odd Airfix buyers cant be wrong though? but i agree a bold move but i think one that would pay. even if RRP was higher...
Yeah a complete sell-out for Airfix....quite Amazing.......

scaleplanes

31st December 2005, 08:24

12000 odd Airfix buyers cant be wrong though? but i agree a bold move but i think one that would pay. even if RRP was higher...

Don't get to carried away with Airfix sales, I've ordered six of the TSR2 but at around £59.99 for a die-cast, I'd only buy one. Also a lot of those model makers who have ordered them, wont touch a die-cast.

Mosquito

31st December 2005, 10:29

Interesting posts, can't say that it wouldn't be nice to have a TSR2 but, I think it would hit the bins even faster than TSR2 on one after burner!
Even 'what if' schemes would hold limited appeal. Sorry its a non starter. :(

davebowden

31st December 2005, 11:02

scaleplanes

1st January 2006, 11:50

seem to remember in the 60s the country was going bankrupt and needed an imf loan. also seem to remember that it has emerged that russia underwrote the labour 1964 ?? election campaign ! within days of coming to power labour
1. scrapped tsr2 and took all parts but the 2 survivors to shoeburyness range for ballistics testing. destroyed all jigs to make the decision irreversible etc.
2 cancelled cva01 and 2 the replacements for the ark and the eagle.
3 scrapped the valiant tanker fleet on fatigue grounds even though one aircraft.. now moving to cosford succesfully had its main spar repaired by marshalls.
thats what happens when you vote labour.. the russians rub their hands with glee as your strategic capabilities are scrapped by idiots with subversive intents.

Too many people make the cancellation of TSR2 sound simple, by blaming Labour but it isn't that simple. Problems started with the formation of BAC, English Electric designed the TSR2 but the Gov. (Conservative) gave the lead to Vickers. This caused so much anger with E.E. that they wouldn't talk to Vickers. Simple decisions tooks weeks of board meetings to sort out, much to the frustration of the test pilots.

Avionics where advancing at a fast rate. Like Tornado, the RAF wanted every new innovation. Far too much state of the art stuff in one prototype, much of it being tested for the first time. Even Rolly Beaumont said it was too advanced for the industry at that time, this and a brand new engine with teething problems made for huge cost over runs.

The whole project was based on sales to the RAF and other countries, mainly Australia. Lord Mountbatton killed the sales to Australia by convincing them that it would never be built. He was trying to safe guard Buccaneer for the Navy. If the TSR2 had carried on, it's almost certain that Buccaneer would have been cancelled and the Navy would have lost carriers a lot sooner than it did. After that, all the other interested countries followed, making the project even more expensive.

I was a young lad when TSR2 was cancelled and felt realy bitter towards Labour but when you look into it, they had no choice, the cost was going to keep going up & up.

In my opinion, what they should have done is given the project a slower test program, much like aircraft development of today, and let the industry catch up with the technology.

Where the political bit comes in, is no one seems to know who gave the order to destroy all the work done so far. The Americans must have had something to do with it. They had a rival aircraft to the TSR2 in the F-111. This was also plagued with cost over-runs, to a point were if it didn't go into production, the 1st National Bank of America, would have collapsed and Briton wouldn't have got the loans it badly needed.

As an aviation enthusiast, I think the RAF of the 60, 70, 80 was more interesting with a verity of aircraft that wouldn't have existed if TSR2 had gone ahead. The future for the enthusiast looks like an RAF with Typhoon and Tornado as the only tactical aircraft and that's how it would have been for decades with just TSR2, the RAF wouldn't have needed anything else but trainers and transport!

The Defiant Man

1st January 2006, 11:55

Interesting thread this......particularly as it's about something that's never going to happen!

Couple of earler posts touched on the Javelin & Swift as the most likely early UK jet......both very nice, but a Sea Vixen or Venom would be my personal bet......

Martin Bull

1st January 2006, 12:03

Thanks for the interesting post, scaleplanes. I also can just dimly remember the 'fuss' over TSR2 and also remember one of the comics giving away a cardboard cut-out model of the aircraft whic I struggled to make look remotely like an aircraft.... :(

More of the 1/1 scale story can be read at : -

http://www.pilotfriend.com/general_interest/potty%20aircraft/TSR2.htm

FWIW, and despite not being into jets at all, I'd have thought TSR2 a worthwhile subject. The full-size ones at Duxford and Cosford always seem to generate a lot of interest.

Agent X20

1st January 2006, 16:12

Trouble is though.. Corgi will want to do 25,000 of them and (and this is the screwy bit) the bean counters will want the investment (and profit) returned inside of six months to a year.... over time you could well sell the required number.. only the way the poochs' fiscals hang....it aint gonna happen..

kevjb64

1st January 2006, 16:30

With the greatest respect, only a madman would stake that much money on a diecast casting of TSR2 , it's doubtful that it wouldn't even break even.

I agree this has been a very interesting thread to read , specially as I did not know very much about the project , so looking into it and reading the views of others has been great .

Until reading planejunkies comment I truly believed we would never see one but the ideas/decisions coming from Corgi in the past 24 months have proved beyond doubt that the people in charge are anything but sane so probably be one in the 2nd half catalogue .

jetfan

1st January 2006, 21:16

Two of my best friends here in Oregon were on the TSR2 design team, so I've always had an interest in it, though I just can't see Corgi tackling it.

I doubt that the Buccaneer program would have been affected by the advent of the TSR2. At the time, the biggest threat was the Sverdlov class cruisers and the NA39 spec arose purely to take out that threat. The TSR2 probably wouldn't have had the range to take out the cruiser if it was operating way out in the Atlantic or Arctic Oceans using long range ship to shore missiles. More importantly, timing was the biggest issue.

The NA39 first flew in April, 1958 and the first F-111 didn't get airborne until 1964 and entered service in 1967 but had lots of problems and were quickly grounded after initial lossses in Vietnam.
The first TSR2 also first flew in 1964. With the long gestation period for modern military aircraft, neither of the other two were any real danger to the Bucc which was well established in Naval service by then. The prototype Mk 2 had been flying for almost a year and the first operational squadron of Mk 2s, 801, stood up on April 1, 1965.
I agree that the RAF probably wouldn't have had them had the TSR2 program continued. After the F-111 program was also dropped, the Bucc made a fine replacement. I think we can all agree on that.

DamienB

1st January 2006, 22:38

I'm glad the TSR2 got cancelled, as great a plane as it was. Just think of all the a/c that wouldn't have entered service if it hadn't been. No Buccaneer

Already in service with the RN two years before TSR2 flew. The RAF would no doubt not have bothered with it had TSR2 entered service though.

no RAF Phantom

No loss there then.

no Jaguar

Possibly still would have gone ahead.

no Lightning (as there was a planed fighter version of the TSR2)

Already firmly in service well before the TSR2 flew. There was, as far as I can find, no planned fighter version of the TSR2 - the airframe was not at all suitable. An interceptor ala Tornado ADV may have made some sense - not much mind you - but again I can't find any concrete info that this was planned.

no Harrier cos the RAF didn't want it anyway (and considering the expense of TSR2, would have got their way)

They'd have had something Harrier-like if not the Harrier itself.

and finally no Tornado!

No need...!

Agent X20

1st January 2006, 23:22

Thought it was me and the vino as to some of the dates... nice to see its been put right..

...and the end of the day.. whatever.. we are heading towards no air force... whether it be Tornado Typhoon or whatever..

jetfan

2nd January 2006, 00:47

I would have thought that the TSR2 would have made a great interceptor. High thrust/weight ratio, and ability to carry internally stowed guided missiles, good endurance compared to the Lightning; two man cockpit already built in.
I doubt if "gun fighter" would have applied though. Size not a problem...think Avro Arrow, Flanker etc. I can't imagine someone in the project office didn't look at this possibilty.

Don't knock the Phantom.. 5,000 plus built, it can't be all that bad, though I think the RN/RAF should have bought stock F-4s rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. As I recall, the RAF pilots really liked the F-4Js when they got the batch from the US Navy stocks. And you have to admit, in spite of its mixture of angles etc, it looks right and who could forget that lovely sound of freedom as it went by. Only one aircraft more distinctive in noise, the howl of a Javelin. Now that's a Corgi I'd like to see!!

scaleplanes

2nd January 2006, 08:23

scaleplanes

2nd January 2006, 09:25

Already in service with the RN two years before TSR2 flew. The RAF would no doubt not have bothered with it had TSR2 entered service though.

No loss there then.

Possibly still would have gone ahead.

Already firmly in service well before the TSR2 flew. There was, as far as I can find, no planned fighter version of the TSR2 - the airframe was not at all suitable. An interceptor ala Tornado ADV may have made some sense - not much mind you - but again I can't find any concrete info that this was planned.

They'd have had something Harrier-like if not the Harrier itself.

No need...!

Yes the Buccaneer and the Lightning were in service, while the TSR2 Prototypes was being developed but you have to look at the whole story. Both aircraft were in a fledgling state and further production of both types would have been reviewed if TSR2 had gone ahead.

With the Buccaneer, the admiralty was so worried about loosing it, that they tried constantly to kill TSR2. Buccaneer was expensive and the Navy thought that they would loose it if they didn't get the RAF to buy it. It only went into production because the Government was flip-flopping over TSR2 from conception. Even as it went into service, the government wouldn’t commit to a firm production total.

As for the Lightning, the high unit price of the TSR2 would have required the RAF to buy a Fighter version, thus no need to operate the Lightning which at the time of service entry, had problems of its own. The further production would have stopped and once the TSR2 fighter was in service. Lightnings in service would have been sold off. You have to remember that the cost of an aircraft doesn't end at the production line and operating two types for the same role is expensive.

The Jaguar was a solution to a problem with the Phantom in RAF service and the RAF didn't rate or want to rely on Harriers.

As for the Harrier, the RAF didn't see a need for a VSTOL, Harrier was forced on them. It has only realy found a home on board ships, were it excells. On the Jag squadrons, there is a moto ' A lot less bother than a hover' and its true.

The TSR2 had too high a wing loading to be a fighter. The fighter version would have had a re-designed, shorter forward fuselage to reduce the load on the wing. It was estimated that the revision would have made a good all-round fighter

davebowden

2nd January 2006, 11:12

best thread in a while this one..
tsr2 had engine resonance problems that were going to cost money to rectify.. but were apparently resolvable.. apparently the early engines kept turning into grenades.certainly the inter company battles needed resolving .. but then that always happens when you try to share things out.. we will doubtless have continueing problems with the new aircraft carriers.
i still have trouble with the fact that of the two survivors, one is as i understand it was an engineering frame without all its systems.. the other which fell off a low loader on the amesbury roundabout enroute to boscombe had all of its looms severred every 18 inches or so so as to render its use improbable.it only apparently survived because it was cat 3 damage and was being repaired at boscombe thus escaping the criminal damage of the production line. sounds like more labour sabotage to me !.
why was the flying example destroyed ? if nothing else it is a very important part of aviation history with little (comparatively) scrap value.
i think the best way you could describe the demise of the TSR2 is sheer wanton vandalism authorised by people with extremely dubious motives.

ps an effort to develop an inerceptor would have been akin to the a12 from which the sr71 blackbird was developed.. a failure. to big and with a turning circle larger than many of the current short hop low cost airline flights.
good in straight lines though !
logicaslly the TSR2 would have made a great replacement for the v bomber fleet (not the tankers) , the strategic recconaissance victors and vulcans, and a lot of the canberra roles. i would doubt that such an expensive stategic assett would have seen much tactical use due to the losses.

balbrick

2nd January 2006, 14:44

Agree with DB on this one,best thread for a long while. As to the hound doing a model,I think you,ll have more chance of getting a ticket on the next space shuttle mission.Anyway Airfix are bringing their model out this year.Time to get the glue out :D

shuttle

2nd January 2006, 16:38

I was tempted by the new Airfix kit but I read somewhere that it will be hard to get hold of? Is it a limited run or have the pre-orders been large?

I would have thought that a production RAF type would make more sense for Corgi. My list would be:

1/72 Javelin
1/72 Tornado F3
1/72 Harrier GR9
1/72 Lightning F6
1/72 Swift
1/72 Gnat
1/72 Merlin
1/72 Wessex

A RN/AAC 1/72 Lynx would be nice as well!!

1/144 Valiant
1/144 C17
1/144 Hastings

I would have thought George Turner models might be up for a 1/72 TSR2? Their Valiant is made by the same tool maker as the AA range so seems to fit in nicely (albeit a lot of dosh....!)

:D Shuttle

Agent X20

2nd January 2006, 18:53

So for about 25% of the price of any of those somewhat esoteric 1/72 molds, you could knock out a 1/144 737, DC9 or BAC 1-11 and sell thousands.. (after you have gotten your marketing department into gear).. strange this diecast world... :mad:

G-force

2nd January 2006, 18:56

Agree, we need a BAC 1-11, but think I'll have a VC-10 before they make a 737 or DC-9

shuttle

2nd January 2006, 19:00

Oi! This is a military thread! :D

I do agree about the VC-10 though and a RAE BAC 1-11 would be nice..........

:) Shuttle

Agent X20

2nd January 2006, 19:02

Its really sod all diecast... a tube, two wings, a tailplane two jets and an undercart... and for that they should get ratil of about £25-£35.... its not exactly rocket science, but there again its all about creating a want a desire.. even a collection.. and the record here canine wise..is pretty abysmal... :(

Yep a VC10 would be nice... anything NEW would be nice..... set of Courtline 1-11's... you would clean up...!! ... and that does create a 'collection'... and it must be bugger all money for the pooch..

Naturally being a military thread the 1-11 and VC10 would go with all the other TC models..!!

p.s. Airfix did do a I-11 so they should be okay then..!!

scaleplanes

2nd January 2006, 19:07

Look guys, I'll solve the problem and do a metal 1/72 TSR2 for £60.................

scaleplanes

2nd January 2006, 19:08

........syke :d

G-force

2nd January 2006, 19:08

Look guts, I'll solve the problem and do a metal 1/72 TSR2 for £60.................

Do you want my money now? :D

scaleplanes

2nd January 2006, 19:10

Do you want my money now? :D

See post below yours :)

G-force

2nd January 2006, 19:19

........syke :d

:confused: WTF????

scaleplanes

2nd January 2006, 19:39

:confused: WTF????

Sorry, just a wind-up :rolleyes:

G-force

2nd January 2006, 19:48

:mad: .......... :( .............. :D ............ :rolleyes:

scaleplanes

2nd January 2006, 19:52

:mad: .......... :( .............. :D ............ :rolleyes:

Yeh, sorry.... a bit cruel :(

DamienB

3rd January 2006, 09:11

Yes the Buccaneer and the Lightning were in service, while the TSR2 Prototypes was being developed but you have to look at the whole story. Both aircraft were in a fledgling state and further production of both types would have been reviewed if TSR2 had gone ahead.

Sorry but that's simply not true. TSR2 had no hope of being used from carriers, and the RN still needed the ability to take out Russian surface ships - the Bucc was safe no matter what. Lightning had been in service for 5 years when the TSR2 was cancelled, with the ultimate F.6 variant in testing at that point. No way was it a fledgling! The Bucc S.1 was not the most effective of types but the S.2 was nearly ready for squadron service, and proved to be superb.

As for the Lightning, the high unit price of the TSR2 would have required the RAF to buy a Fighter version, thus no need to operate the Lightning which at the time of service entry, had problems of its own.

Again not true. This idea of a 'fighter version' of something very specifically designed for bombing and recon just doesn't make sense and has never been really successful with any other type. The RAF certainly had no requirement to replace the Lightning at the time.

The Jaguar was a solution to a problem with the Phantom in RAF service and the RAF didn't rate or want to rely on Harriers.

Again not true. The Jag was originally to be an advanced supersonic trainer (and Gnat/Hunter replacement). Cancellation of TSR2, F111K and AFVG resulted in the RAF being desperate for something - anything - that could drop a bomb or two so they wanted it beefed up for ground attack. Luckily as they had always wanted a rather more capable aircraft than the French, the Jag didn't need much more work to get to the point where it was useful. I think its a tribute to the Jag's designers that it kept on being used once the Tornado entered service. "A lot less bovva than a Tonka" is another line I've heard!

As for the Harrier, the RAF didn't see a need for a VSTOL, Harrier was forced on them.

The RAF absolutely saw the need for VSTOL; but yes the Harrier was forced upon them, but only in that they saw it as a poor second best to what they really wanted - P1154.

The TSR2 had too high a wing loading to be a fighter. The fighter version would have had a re-designed, shorter forward fuselage to reduce the load on the wing. It was estimated that the revision would have made a good all-round fighter

Do you have a source for this? It seems to be commonly quoted TSR2 folklore rather than fact so I'd be really interested in seeing where it springs from.

DamienB

3rd January 2006, 09:19

best thread in a while this one..
tsr2 had engine resonance problems that were going to cost money to rectify.. but were apparently resolvable.. apparently the early engines kept turning into grenades.

BSEL had a cure by the time of cancellation but never got to test it. People tend to forget that the problems encountered with TSR2s engines also saved a lot of heartache with Concorde's engines, which benefited from the lessons learned on TSR2.

i still have trouble with the fact that of the two survivors, one is as i understand it was an engineering frame without all its systems..

It was a production airframe, but was never entirely finished and just put together to get it off the line and into instructional use at Cranfield.

scaleplanes

3rd January 2006, 21:22

Sorry but that's simply not true. TSR2 had no hope of being used from carriers, and the RN still needed the ability to take out Russian surface ships - the Bucc was safe no matter what. Lightning had been in service for 5 years when the TSR2 was cancelled, with the ultimate F.6 variant in testing at that point. No way was it a fledgling! The Bucc S.1 was not the most effective of types but the S.2 was nearly ready for squadron service, and proved to be superb.

Again not true. This idea of a 'fighter version' of something very specifically designed for bombing and recon just doesn't make sense and has never been really successful with any other type. The RAF certainly had no requirement to replace the Lightning at the time.

Again not true. The Jag was originally to be an advanced supersonic trainer (and Gnat/Hunter replacement). Cancellation of TSR2, F111K and AFVG resulted in the RAF being desperate for something - anything - that could drop a bomb or two so they wanted it beefed up for ground attack. Luckily as they had always wanted a rather more capable aircraft than the French, the Jag didn't need much more work to get to the point where it was useful. I think its a tribute to the Jag's designers that it kept on being used once the Tornado entered service. "A lot less bovva than a Tonka" is another line I've heard!

The RAF absolutely saw the need for VSTOL; but yes the Harrier was forced upon them, but only in that they saw it as a poor second best to what they really wanted - P1154.

Do you have a source for this? It seems to be commonly quoted TSR2 folklore rather than fact so I'd be really interested in seeing where it springs from.

Firstly. I don’t quite understand the use of the words “Not true”, when we are actually talking about something hypothetically.

You can’t keep using 1965 as a point at which all decisions regarding the discussed aircraft would have been made. Yes Buccaneer and Lightning, were established in squadron service at that date but only because TSR2 was in doubt from 1957.

Buccaneer production did require an RAF purchase and only went into production initially, because it was considered the no.1 fallback option for the RAF (thankfully good foresight). If Buccaneer wasn’t in threat from TSR2, why did the admiralty go after it with such determination to get it cancelled? I think that piece of factual history speaks volumes. I believe that the Navy thought they would loose Buccaneer and thus the carriers. It was suggested that the Navy would have a good shore based anti-shipping aircraft in TSR2.

The Lightning as the RAF got it, was considered an interim design, with further development expected to produce the definitive variant. This idea was the reason why the F1-F6 were developed and was still alive at the cancellation of TSR2 and again, the reason why the programme was left to ‘mature’ in the years prior to 1965, is because of the running doubts over TSR2. Sadly further development of the Lightning beyond F.6, was also dropped because of the lack of foreign interest.

Those who think that the RAF could have had TSR2, as well as Lightning and any other advanced aircraft envisaged at the time, are looking through rose coloured glasses. The original price for TSR2 was around £160mm, it has since been estimated that, at the 1968 in-service date, the cost would have been around £750m- what other aircraft do you think the RAF would have got on top of that bill?

I said earlier that Jaguar started life as a concept for an advanced trainer. A strike/close support version was developed because of the shortfalls with Phantom. If you think that the Jag would have entered service as an advanced trainer along side TSR2, think again. The Jaguar has never been used as an advanced trainer in RAF service today, why? Because it would have been an expensive extravagance, even without TSR2.
The TSR2 would have covered every attack role except close support- the only reason for a Jaguar type aircraft but again, cost of operating two strike types being a major issue. If you don't think the RAF would use expensive strike assets in the close support role, then why do we see pictures of Tornadoes with BL755? The only reason Jaguar operates alongside Tornado is because the RAF had the foresight to realise that the future was going to be cut-backs, the Jag was kept on as a sacrificial lamb.

"Lot less bovva than a Tonka", maybe so, but they still wooped us in bombing comps!

Harrier, find me an RAF requirement issued for a VSTOL. I served on Jag squadrons in Germany and there wasn’t anything a Harrier force could do that we couldn’t do better. Find information were the RAF sent Harriers (prior to GR.7)to competitions and came back with the trophys. Harrier hides are a folly, they take days to set up(which can be watched from space) and are compromised the first time a Harrier hovers for landing. As for P1154, they couldn’t get Plennium chamber burning to work until a few years ago, and if they had, the jet blast would have melted anything underneath it, even Harrier can’t hover over a runway or a flight deck for too long. Harrier excels on-board ships and the concept would have made a great fighter. If the RAF really wanted a VSTOL, why was F-35 being procured for the Navy only?

As for the data on TSR2- Rolly Beamont’s pilot notes, in the RAF yearbook 1976.

Can’t make a fighter out of a bomber, what about Tornado F.3? It’s only shortfall is it’s engines, which were designed for strike, max thrust at low level and fuel efficient at medium to high level- just were a fighter needs max power. Also, seem to remember seeing BAC drawings of a TSR2 with V.G.

Lastly, for those who think Labour cancelled the TSR2 out of some empathy with the USSR, well the Conservatives have admitted, that they too where going to kill TSR2 and all the other programmes, had they won the general election. Dennis Healy said that after the announcement, the then shadow secretary for defence congratulated him on a brave decision.

kevjb64

3rd January 2006, 22:18

scaleplanes

3rd January 2006, 22:21

All this debate has certainly wetted the old appetite , just ordered TSR2 DVD in the classic british jets series , got the one on the lightning and hunter whilst browsing as well .

Anyone already seen it ??

That's a good one, also look out for TSR2 The true story- Rolly Beamont look like he's going to burst into tears!

DamienB

4th January 2006, 09:35

Firstly. I don’t quite understand the use of the words “Not true”, when we are actually talking about something hypothetically.

Saying things like 'Buccaneer was under threat' when it was not - that's "not true". Perhaps I should be more tactful and say "That turns out not to be the case"?

You can’t keep using 1965 as a point at which all decisions regarding the discussed aircraft would have been made. Yes Buccaneer and Lightning, were established in squadron service at that date but only because TSR2 was in doubt from 1957.

This is a completely bizarre statement. The requirement that led to TSR2 was only issued in 1957. Buccaneer and Lightning were in service by 1965 because they were needed; TSR2 was simply not relevant to either of them at the time, and would have been no more relevant had it continued.

If Buccaneer wasn’t in threat from TSR2, why did the admiralty go after it with such determination to get it cancelled? I think that piece of factual history speaks volumes.

Because the RN believed nuclear deterrence to be their job, not that of the RAF, and they feared for their future carriers in an ever shrinking defence budget. It was nothing to do with a threat to the Buccaneer, and that was only brought into the discussion because they wanted the RAF to buy it too and thus reduce their own unit costs.

The Lightning as the RAF got it, was considered an interim design, with further development expected to produce the definitive variant. This idea was the reason why the F1-F6 were developed and was still alive at the cancellation of TSR2 and again, the reason why the programme was left to ‘mature’ in the years prior to 1965, is because of the running doubts over TSR2.

That turns out not to be the case. The Lightning has nothing to do with TSR2.

Sadly further development of the Lightning beyond F.6, was also dropped because of the lack of foreign interest.

Well, not entirely. Development of navalised variant - cancelled due to changes in defence policy including cancellation of CVA-01. Development of radar for look-down/shoot-down - cancelled due to acquisition of Phantom. Etc. As far as the RAF were concerned, Lightning did its job perfectly - home defence. Anything else was icing on the cake and with budgets shrinking, icing wasn't needed. Even when orders from other nations were forthcoming, none of those nations were interested in the more advanced ideas (some might say ****** silly ideas).

Those who think that the RAF could have had TSR2, as well as Lightning and any other advanced aircraft envisaged at the time, are looking through rose coloured glasses. The original price for TSR2 was around £160mm, it has since been estimated that, at the 1968 in-service date, the cost would have been around £750m- what other aircraft do you think the RAF would have got on top of that bill?

How much do you think was actually spent on other types in the end? Do you think Spey-engined F-4s were cheap? Do you think Tornado was cheap? Costs rose whether we were building the aeroplanes or not, and when we were not, that money was disappearing out of the country instead of staying in it.

I said earlier that Jaguar started life as a concept for an advanced trainer. A strike/close support version was developed because of the shortfalls with Phantom.

That turns out not to be the case. We didn't get our first F-4s (and these for the RN) until early 1968. The RAF had altered the Jaguar requirement to make it a strike aircraft in 1967, due to the loss of F-111K and then AFVG.

If you think that the Jag would have entered service as an advanced trainer along side TSR2, think again.

Actually it could have made quite a decent trainer for the TSR2 force, if the dual TSR2 trainer did not go ahead. The RAF wanted a dual control TSR2 with enlarged canopy but were prepared to accept using Lightning T.5s to begin with along with the Hunter T.12. Jaguar may have made a cheaper alternative to dual control TSR2s.

The Jaguar has never been used as an advanced trainer in RAF service today, why? Because it would have been an expensive extravagance, even without TSR2.

Because they needed something to drop bombs, not train pilots for the F111K/AFVG, neither of which had arrived.

The only reason Jaguar operates alongside Tornado is because the RAF had the foresight to realise that the future was going to be cut-backs, the Jag was kept on as a sacrificial lamb.

Yes, we spent loads of money and time developing an aeroplane so it could be 'sacrificed' after... er... 30 years of use, having taken part in several conflicts in the mean time. Doesn't really tally with your comments on cost and rose coloured glasses, does it?

Harrier, find me an RAF requirement issued for a VSTOL.

GOR 345 and OR 356 should do as a start.

As for the data on TSR2- Rolly Beamont’s pilot notes, in the RAF yearbook 1976.

Would love to see a scan of that if possible, never read anything from him that mentioned an air defence variant before.

Can’t make a fighter out of a bomber, what about Tornado F.3?

Well that rather proves the point, it's no fighter at all. :D

DamienB

4th January 2006, 09:37

All this debate has certainly wetted the old appetite , just ordered TSR2 DVD in the classic british jets series , got the one on the lightning and hunter whilst browsing as well .

Anyone already seen it ??

Yes - it's a re-issue of the VHS, thankfully quality is pretty good though. Worth buying just to see the beast airborne, never mind the rest of the programme!

Agent X20

4th January 2006, 09:43

'Quoting on the Lightning..'
Well, not entirely. Development of navalised variant

Great post and what an idea... surely if we can have silly chrome Lightnings, a gloss grey navalised jobbie complete with arrester hook.... wheres Mr Mo4mkt...??

Carriers a couple of miles long.. whizzo.... :D

scaleplanes

4th January 2006, 18:39

Saying things like 'Buccaneer was under threat' when it was not - that's "not true". Perhaps I should be more tactful and say "That turns out not to be the case"?

This is a completely bizarre statement. The requirement that led to TSR2 was only issued in 1957. Buccaneer and Lightning were in service by 1965 because they were needed; TSR2 was simply not relevant to either of them at the time, and would have been no more relevant had it continued.

Because the RN believed nuclear deterrence to be their job, not that of the RAF, and they feared for their future carriers in an ever shrinking defence budget. It was nothing to do with a threat to the Buccaneer, and that was only brought into the discussion because they wanted the RAF to buy it too and thus reduce their own unit costs.

That turns out not to be the case. The Lightning has nothing to do with TSR2.

Well, not entirely. Development of navalised variant - cancelled due to changes in defence policy including cancellation of CVA-01. Development of radar for look-down/shoot-down - cancelled due to acquisition of Phantom. Etc. As far as the RAF were concerned, Lightning did its job perfectly - home defence. Anything else was icing on the cake and with budgets shrinking, icing wasn't needed. Even when orders from other nations were forthcoming, none of those nations were interested in the more advanced ideas (some might say ****** silly ideas).

How much do you think was actually spent on other types in the end? Do you think Spey-engined F-4s were cheap? Do you think Tornado was cheap? Costs rose whether we were building the aeroplanes or not, and when we were not, that money was disappearing out of the country instead of staying in it.

That turns out not to be the case. We didn't get our first F-4s (and these for the RN) until early 1968. The RAF had altered the Jaguar requirement to make it a strike aircraft in 1967, due to the loss of F-111K and then AFVG.

Actually it could have made quite a decent trainer for the TSR2 force, if the dual TSR2 trainer did not go ahead. The RAF wanted a dual control TSR2 with enlarged canopy but were prepared to accept using Lightning T.5s to begin with along with the Hunter T.12. Jaguar may have made a cheaper alternative to dual control TSR2s.

Because they needed something to drop bombs, not train pilots for the F111K/AFVG, neither of which had arrived.

Yes, we spent loads of money and time developing an aeroplane so it could be 'sacrificed' after... er... 30 years of use, having taken part in several conflicts in the mean time. Doesn't really tally with your comments on cost and rose coloured glasses, does it?

GOR 345 and OR 356 should do as a start.

Would love to see a scan of that if possible, never read anything from him that mentioned an air defence variant before.

Well that rather proves the point, it's no fighter at all. :D

Can I just make it clear that, comments I made regarding TSR2, other aircraft connected with its demise and the future of the RAF had it gone into production, are my own personal opinion on what might have happened based on the financial situation at the time. Before I reply on your comment on the Lightning and Tornado F3, I just want to qualify what I have based my opinion on.

Cost overruns are now expected in aviation developments, thanks to the likes of TSR2 and F-111. These were among the first aircraft to experience dramatic increases and must have come as a shock to ministers and the general public.

There were doubts over the costing of TSR2 right from day one, which is why I said you have to look back to 1957. A year prior to the order for the TSR2 prototypes, Blackburn where asked to come up with a Buccaneer for the RAF – already the start of a lack of faith in TSR2. The Navy needed The RAF to buy Buccaneer in order to provide a lower unit price and therefore provide a stable production programme. With the TSR2 in doubt, Buccaneer was required to be available as a fall back option. If there were firm, unswayable commitment in TSR2, would Buccaneer have survived without the possibility of an RAF order? Add to that the possibility of and because of the cost of TSR2 and the desire to increase the production order ( more orders would have meant a cheaper unit price, making the aircraft more attractive to export customers) the Navy may have had to take on a land-based maritime strike version. With the future of carriers in doubt, this purchase could have brought on an earlier demise to the navy carrier fleet, hence why the Buccaneer was under threat from TSR2.

As for any other aircraft projects for the RAF, the desire to increase the production of TSR2, would have lead to further variants being developed. Once again, more aircraft = lower unit price = export sales= cheaper unit price and so on.

Lightning, the survivor of the Sands White Paper was considered by the RAF and the government, as an interim aircraft to fill a gap until the advent of the ‘missile era’. From the manufacturer point of view, Lightning was a sound basis for better versions. A VG version for the Navy wasn’t the only development. There were in fact actually two versions offered to the Navy, along with: P.8, P.15, P.18, P.19, P.33 & P.34 for the RAF and export. The lightning suffered from lack of funding and interest and would have faired even worse had TSR2 gone ahead. Lightning was used as an interceptor role for which the TSR2 could have excelled. You mention that the Lightning served the RAF well, yes it did, for the few years when the threat was expected from high-altitude bombers. When the threat switched to low-level, the Lightning was no longer an effective aircraft (IR missiles have limited use against low flying target). Confirmation of this came from the quick replacement by Phantoms once they became available for air defence. I’m not knocking the Lighting, it was a great aircraft and would have made a great dog-fighter with the right weapons system. In a fighter-on-fighter situation, the Lightning was effectively limited to guns, since both Firestreak and Red Top had to be fired within a very narrow cone emanating from the jet pipes of the adversary. There wasn’t even funding or interest in a simple conversion to AIM-9s, considering this, how much longer would the Lightning have lasted with TSR2 in service?
J
aguar, again this aircraft would not have been required as TSR2 had a battlefield support role. As an advanced trainer for TSR2, this would have probably been too expensive and the RAF, would have had to use a version of the Hunter or as you said, redundant Lightning T4/5 until the cost of TSR2 had been reduce to a point were an OCU version was affordable. You suggest that Jaguar was purchased as a need for an aircraft to drop a couple of bombs, well Phantoms were doing that, long before Jaguars entered service. Yes the design of Jaguar to a strike aircraft was altered before Phantom entered service but it was after Phantom was chosen and ordered, as I said, to fill a shortfall in that aircraft.
I didn’t suggest that the RAF bought Jaguar to use it as a sacrificial lamb, just that it was kept on after entry of Tornado for that reason. The reason why Jaguar was sent to the Gulf is because the couldn’t commit any more Tornadoes and not because it could fulfil a role better. Also the RAF couldn’t send Harriers because the engine compressor blades were not hardened against sand ingestion.

The limitation of the Tornado F.3, are not because of technical flaws brought on by its development from a strike aircraft but rather because of financial constraints not providing the correct engine. On the run-up to the first Gulf war, the RAF did adversary training with the US Marines F-18s, I think the score was 22-nil to the F.3. Also during a maple flag exercise, the boss of 5 squadron ‘took out’ four F-16s! The Tornado got a bad press because it was kept out of harms way during the first Gulf war. This was not because it was considered to be a risk but because it couldn’t communicate with the USAF battlefield system. The Navy’s F-14s were also kept in reserve for the same reason.

Agent X20

4th January 2006, 19:14

A VG version for the Navy

Excellent post(s)... going to have to start reading them in the loo.. a VG version....?? VG as in.. very grey..?

goonybird

4th January 2006, 19:40

Interesting thread.
Chap that does models at the Air Cadets has an original BAC Brochure for the proposed Lightning Naval version. An interesting read. The company must have thought there was mileage in it.

G-force

4th January 2006, 19:48

The company must have thought there was mileage in it.

As Agent has pointed out, there was mileage in it, the two miles that the carrier would have had to have been!!

scaleplanes

4th January 2006, 19:55

GOR 345 and OR 356 should do as a start.

The original proposal from the RAF, was for a highly-advanced aircraft that could opperate away from airfields, not for a VSTOL

GOR345 was a request for the Kestrel after the demonstration of P.1127
OR356 was for something other than Harrier. All further request was altered to fit with in with the Harrier proposal. By the time is was ready to go into production, the RAF didn't want it

Hawker Siddley had ideas that the Harrier would be an effective fighter (as proven in the Falklands) and not as a striker.

G-force

4th January 2006, 20:00

But what about the VSTOL TSR.2? :confused:

:D

scaleplanes

4th January 2006, 20:05

Because the RN believed nuclear deterrence to be their job, not that of the RAF, and they feared for their future carriers in an ever shrinking defence budget. It was nothing to do with a threat to the Buccaneer, and that was only brought into the discussion because they wanted the RAF to buy it too and thus reduce their own unit costs.

The Navy did think that nuclear deterrence was their job but only strategically. The RAF's tactical deterrent wasn't in question. A Navy Buccaneer on-board the ARK in the middle of the Atlantic, wouldn't be much use when a target was required to be bombed on the battlefields of Germany :D

scaleplanes

4th January 2006, 20:09

But what about the VSTOL TSR.2? :confused:

:D

I think that was P.17 lifted into the air(and captured) on a lifting platform..... A bit Gerry Anderson if you ask me :D :D

G-force

4th January 2006, 20:11

:confused: I was joking. What are you talking about?

scaleplanes

4th January 2006, 20:16

:confused: I was joking. What are you talking about?

The P.17 looked like the TSR2, it was lfted into the air on a platform powered by a million engines. The aircraft had to then land on it in the air, to be brought down verticaly!

Agent X20

4th January 2006, 20:19

Bit like Cloudbase....and the Angel Interceptors.... mmm... Harmony Angel.. :cool: oh bug*er ... second pair of wet pants today....

Bet Gerry Anderson would have got the TSR2 into regular service..

G-force

4th January 2006, 20:20

Remember it now, daft idea, would love to have been at the board meeting deciding that one!

scaleplanes

4th January 2006, 21:18

Bit like Cloudbase....and the Angel Interceptors.... mmm... Harmony Angel.. :cool: oh bug*er ... second pair of wet pants today....

.

Sandra Bullock I can understad but puppets on strings...........c'mon agent :D

neighbob

4th January 2006, 21:50

There are a lot of posts for something that's not going to happen.

davebowden

4th January 2006, 22:12

quite the best thread in ages.. and long may it continue.
there are numerous references to cost over runs and stepping too far ahead technically.. personally i dont think we learned a thing.
1. we then decided we would develop a whole 11 aew nimrods when other platforms were available off shelf. to do this we decimated an already stretched nimrod mr2 fleet.. billions spent. 11 zero airframe houred nimrods scrapped and we buy what was already available.
2. we develop tornado f3. millions spent and we cant initially even make the radar work.. the famous blue circle was used for some time as an interim replacement. what was wrong with the f15.. great aircraft, available, and with parts commonality to our only trustworthy ally.
3. we take the great phantom and bugger it up to take british engines.. remarkable to improve an aircraft to the extent that it is slower has less ceiling and less range whilst costing lots more !
4. we try to build a stovl f35 . it would seem it costs a damn sight more than a few catapults on our carriers, is far too heavy and the yanks will probably cancel it anyway. fortunately it will mean that our carriers will not be able to operate french naval assets or more importantly american ones .. especially E2C which means we will then spend squillions developing a tilt rotor or merlin AEW .
5. JESUS WE ARE GOOD AT DEVELOPMENT AND PROCUREMENT.

goonybird

4th January 2006, 22:33

Just remember it WAS the French that "alledgedly" built their aircraft carrier too short to take the Rafale.
Not always us.

And how the heck do you spell alegdallyee.....

scaleplanes

4th January 2006, 22:41

. what was wrong with the f15.. great aircraft, available, and with parts commonality to our only trustworthy ally.

F-15 was offered to the RAF as a cheaper option to the prefered F-14 which suited the RAF's requirement for a two man crew. The RAF turned it down!

DamienB

4th January 2006, 23:08

Can I just make it clear that, comments I made regarding TSR2, other aircraft connected with its demise and the future of the RAF had it gone into production, are my own personal opinion on what might have happened based on the financial situation at the time.

Not much point continuing the discussion then is there... if any of your argument is based on fact then highlight it and I'll respond but otherwise this is just a waste of time really, isn't it?

Agent X20

4th January 2006, 23:26

What the hell was VG..!!!!

In fairness all the posts made good reading...

scaleplanes

4th January 2006, 23:33

What the hell was VG..!!!!

In fairness all the posts made good reading...

VG variable geometry- swing wing. The aircraft was basicaly a T55 with pivoting outer section wings

Agent X20

4th January 2006, 23:52

VG Lightning..... wow... ta... think that might even push Mr Rifles modelling skills.... wonder if Uncle Bobs looking in these days.. think hes to embroiled polishing a certain Generals helmet..!! :eek:

scaleplanes

5th January 2006, 00:08

Remember it now, daft idea, would love to have been at the board meeting deciding that one!

Talking of board meetings and on the topic of TSR2, I seem to remember Rolly Beamont recalling a board meeting with 58 personnel present. The minister in-charge asked them to go away and return to the next meeting with essential personnel only......the head count went up to 61 :D

scaleplanes

5th January 2006, 00:20

Not much point continuing the discussion then is there... if any of your argument is based on fact then highlight it and I'll respond but otherwise this is just a waste of time really, isn't it?

I think we have both used the same facts, just interpreted them differently to express opinions on a hypothetical outcome. I've long realised that there are certain aviation subjects that it's best not to get into argument over: Spitfire v Mustang, Concorde, TSR2 and for god's sake don't knock Typhoon or I'l start finger prodding:D :D

jetfan

5th January 2006, 00:50

The fact that there is now really only one aircraft design company vs the many of the 1950s means that the number of EXPERIENCED designers available in recent years is very limited. The aircraft industry has so few career opportunities today. This all started many years ago when all the mergers began.

This caused quite an aeronautical "brain drain" to the USA in the late 1950s and early 1960s simply because the opportunities in the UK were so limited. I was one of many who went abroad in those days and never looked back.

The situation in the UK was so bad that in 1966, when Lockheed decided that the C-5 wing would be designed in the UK (Southall), they had to reimport a number of these expats, including me, as there was insufficient experienced manpower available in the UK at the time. The decision to design the wing in the UK was simply because there was so much work in the USA that there was a shortage engineers to do everything. I and number of other ex-Brits, were recruited in Canada to go back to the U.K. as it was quicker than trying to get work permits to enter the USA at the time.

Happily, that changed 18 months later. Back in Canada, I was offered a job in the USA and got my Green card two weeks later as there was still such a shortage of engineers that the US Govt expedited applications.

DamienB

6th January 2006, 09:16

I've long realised that there are certain aviation subjects that it's best not to get into argument over

Ah now there speaks a man of wisdom :D

Incidentally on the subject of Lightnings suffering from TSR2, a bit of digging yesterday found a little tit-bit to back you up - partially - at least one government minister mentioned reducing the number of planned Lightning squadrons due to the cost involved with both them and TSR2 and other advanced projects. He is countered, however, by the RAF who point out that air defence cannot be thrown away purely because it's too expensive and berate him for his lack of understanding.

scaleplanes

6th January 2006, 19:14

Ah now there speaks a man of wisdom :D

Incidentally on the subject of Lightnings suffering from TSR2, a bit of digging yesterday found a little tit-bit to back you up - partially - at least one government minister mentioned reducing the number of planned Lightning squadrons due to the cost involved with both them and TSR2 and other advanced projects. He is countered, however, by the RAF who point out that air defence cannot be thrown away purely because it's too expensive and berate him for his lack of understanding.

Ah yes but would their reaction have been the same, with the possibility of a a fighter or at the very least an interceptor version of TSR2....hypothetically speaking of cause :D

boris

14th January 2006, 23:39

Xr219 Prototype Model On Ebay-£102.00 With 328 Hits.
Ref 6999334123 Finishing Tomorrow.

scaleplanes

15th January 2006, 00:12

Xr219 Prototype Model On Ebay-£102.00 With 328 Hits.
Ref 6999334123 Finishing Tomorrow.

1/144 white metal model available from CAM about £130, have seen one for sale in East Midlands shop for £75. Look better in photos than close-up!

CFBC

15th January 2006, 00:34

Xr219 Prototype Model On Ebay-£102.00 With 328 Hits.
Ref 6999334123 Finishing Tomorrow.

Very interesting indeed as this looks like tje version I have too and what Scaleplanes is referring too at CAM. I picked mine up from a guy in Birmingham selling his collection off a couple of years back for half the amount it is at present.... I wouldn't part with mine though... Sits nicely with a Vulcan! All we need is the Valiant to go with it... :cool:

DamienB

15th January 2006, 11:52

Nice of the seller to rip off part of my website; he also appears to be saying he includes a copy of the site as part of the sale, yet has neglected to ask my permission to sell my work... :rolleyes:

plumstix

15th January 2006, 13:27

Damien, get on to eBay and get the auction pulled as mentioned in another thread.

shuttle

15th January 2006, 13:52

The latest Aircraft Illustrated has a great article on the Duxford TSR.2 plus a Jimmy Dell interview.

:D Shuttle

Greycap Leader

17th January 2006, 20:55

Hello chaps,

When I started this thread there was alot of members that said it was not worth corgi making this model as it would not sell very well. By looking at the one on evilbay, it seems that there is a market for them £105.00!!! I really think that Corgi should consider making a 1/72nd scale version of the TSR2.

CFBC

17th January 2006, 21:04

Yes G/L I agree with you indeed that a TSR2 would sell well, much the same as a Valiant also, but we ain't seen one of them yet either.... :rolleyes:

Greycap Leader

17th January 2006, 21:10

You seem to like your V-Bombers CFBC and I agree with you, the Valient is the only missing one of the three. It would display nice with the Vulcan and Victor, a nice white anti-flash should be the first one that Corgi produce. Am I right in saying that it was the first V-Bomber in service.

Bill Risbridger

17th January 2006, 23:43

If this hasn't been said already (I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread) Exclusive Models produce a die cast 1/144 TSR2, available from CAM for £99.95 or £89.96 if you're a member.

Greycap Leader

17th February 2007, 13:40

I watched the 'Classic British Jets - TSR2 - The untold story' last night. There was a great interview with Roland. I would love to talk to him about this fantastic aeroplane. When it finished I felt really depressed:( :(

The only thing that will cheer me up is for Corgi to produce a 1/72nd version. There is only four on the Bay and they are all on decent money, and if Airfix can sell near on 12,000 I am sure Corgi can. I think even people who do not collect Aviation like we do would buy it as it is a nice display piece (plus you would not have to make it up!)

What with Rolands Tiffe being released. I would be nice to have two differnt aircraft that one famous pilot flew. Anyway, it is a great DVD if you have not seen it then I suggest you go and buy it!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Classic-British-Jets-TSR2-Military-Aviation-DVD_W0QQitemZ190084022538QQihZ009QQcategoryZ60881Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

totalplanenuts

19th February 2007, 11:52

Nimrod48

19th February 2007, 13:12

CORGI! I WANT A TSR2 AND I WANT ONE NOW!!!!!!!!!

Who's with me, we have got the Lightning and the Harrier and now we want the TSR2!!

I very much want a TSR2 in 1:72 scale each time I see them either at Duxford or Cosford I could weep.

prune

19th February 2007, 13:22

There was a great interview with Roland. I would love to talk to him about this fantastic aeroplane.

If you manage to have a chat with him,be sure to let us know how you managed it:D

shuttle

19th February 2007, 16:45

The late, great Roland Beaumont would be a great subject for Corgi as they could also produce some of the Lightning's he flew. As regards to the TSR.2, here is a picture of the Airfix one I made - A great model but the size of it would mean that it would be a serious lump of metal. I honestly can't see anyone producing a diecast one.

Bravo Delta models produce a nice wooden one : http://www.bravodeltamodels.com/Product.php?ProductID=144

I have seen these at Duxford and they look very good,

:) Shuttle

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/crawfie65/05b3659d.jpg

Greycap Leader

19th February 2007, 18:08

If you manage to have a chat with him,be sure to let us know how you managed it:D

Ha ha, What I mean't was that I would like to have a chat with him about this aircraft. I did think about a medium, but I am a double XL:LOL: :LOL:

Greycap Leader

19th February 2007, 18:12

Dutchie

19th February 2007, 18:30

OKE shuttle, this looks really good:) I have a Lightning dvd on which Roland Beaumont is telling a lot about his first testflights. But what special Lightnings did he fly after that..?
d.

strix1998

19th February 2007, 18:35

need hints about putting prices up but the TSR2 would be one model which I would be prepared to pre order and pay a premium on given and recognising the lack of potential schemes.
There was a what if Airfix TSR2 on Ebay recently completed in grey/green cammo a hypothetical example of what it might have looked like in squadron service........

Greycap Leader

19th February 2007, 18:38

sniperUK

19th February 2007, 18:55

operational TSR-2 a bit like this one

http://www.diecast-aviation.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6349&d=1142206396

DamienB

19th February 2007, 19:28

One paint scheme? One variant? What tosh!

TSR2 trainer...

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/public3/baceaglet2.jpg

shuttle

19th February 2007, 19:37

Greycap Leader

19th February 2007, 20:29

One paint scheme? One variant? What tosh!

TSR2 trainer...

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/public3/baceaglet2.jpg

I love that scheme, it seems that we are singing from the same hymn sheet! Right! thats FIVE!! camo scheme's 'anti-flash, recon, trainer (thanks DamienB), 617sqn markings and I think it is 17sqn (correct me if I am wrong sinper)

At 2,000 each that is 10,000 models, more than enough. I would buy all of them.

Greycap Leader

19th February 2007, 20:34

Check out this thread to see how I built the TSR.2: http://www.diecast-aviation.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3233&highlight=tsr2

Roland Beaumont was so heavily involved in the Lightning programme that there are many schemes that could be produced. How about the RSAAF F Mk 52? It would make a nice change IMHO.

:) Shuttle

I had a quick flick through, very interesting nice work Shuttle. I might get one of these and have a go myself, put a big nuke in the bomb bay, we cold even add abit of nose art. Now, what could we have?, maybe "Nuke them till they Glow"

Agent X20

19th February 2007, 20:38

Oi.... yer forgot this one....

.. as I stated earlier please do try and keep up..... its so very tiresome...:D

apologies to Damien Burke....

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/AgentX20/TSR2.jpg

Greycap Leader

19th February 2007, 20:43

Oi.... yer forgot this one....

.. as I stated earlier please do try and keep up..... its so very tiresome...:D

apologies to Damien Burke....

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/AgentX20/TSR2.jpg

Sorry Agent, when you mention anything to do with civvies I seem to shut off!! Have you just coloured that in??

Agent X20

19th February 2007, 20:47

Yes.. wif me own crayons.. I was gonna cut it out but matron dont allow me scissors...:mad: :( :LOL:

Come on then sunshine... lets see your attempt.....:D

Dambusters

19th February 2007, 21:04

Agent X20

19th February 2007, 21:51

well with a nice pair on the nose.. your sibling did want nose art...:D :D .. Im happy with it.. but there again you is into PR pink....:D :D :D :D :cool:

The Defiant Man

20th February 2007, 00:03

At 2,000 each that is 10,000 models, more than enough.

Not enough for Corgi.....or probably any other manufacturer.....they'd probably need to produce far, far more to make it pay......and because of the size, most people won't buy them all, or even more than one.....

A non-starter..........

Greycap Leader

20th February 2007, 00:46

Yes.. wif me own crayons.. I was gonna cut it out but matron dont allow me scissors...:mad: :( :LOL:

Come on then sunshine... lets see your attempt.....:D

OK Agent, here you go. I fired up the IMAC and we have three more schemes for Corgi.

Greycap Leader

20th February 2007, 00:50

Not enough for Corgi.....or probably any other manufacturer.....they'd probably need to produce far, far more to make it pay......and because of the size, most people won't buy them all, or even more than one.....

A non-starter..........

I have heard through the grapevine that Corgi are bringing there run size's down within two years. There are only going to produce what they have on pre-order plus a few hundred extra. If a model doesn't get enough pre-orders then they are going to cut it from the catalogue. Will shall have to wait and see.

Agent X20

20th February 2007, 07:19

Sorry that sorta thinking aint Corgi's raison d'etre.. they are mass production die cast wallahs...

If the AA's dont sell and make a profit.... the line will be dropped, whatever the subject.

Stuff that old Wong is knocking out now wont be here for a coupla years... Only Herpa ( and perhaps Dragon) have that sort of pre-order time lag..:D

p.s. nice colourin in.... you can be chief artist this week...

Martin Bull

20th February 2007, 08:10

And if Corgi get around to doing one, don't forget the near-legendary desert TSR-2.....:)

sniperUK

20th February 2007, 09:12

And if Corgi get around to doing one, don't forget the near-legendary desert TSR-2.....:)

A bit like the ones here:LOL:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/images/Placement-Guide---Front.jpg&imgrefurl=http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/x72059reviewrk_1.htm&h=500&w=365&sz=65&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=P_8BQc_5A9fxsM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTSR-2%2Bdecals%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26c lient%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DG

http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/x72059reviewrk_1.htm

strix1998

20th February 2007, 09:48

Martin Bull

20th February 2007, 09:48

That's the one ! :cool Do they do a sheet for the Me262....? ;)

Greycap Leader

20th February 2007, 11:48

A bit like the ones here:LOL:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/images/Placement-Guide---Front.jpg&imgrefurl=http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/x72059reviewrk_1.htm&h=500&w=365&sz=65&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=P_8BQc_5A9fxsM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTSR-2%2Bdecals%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26c lient%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DG

http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/x72059reviewrk_1.htm

There are more than enough shemes for Corgi to produce and I think there is enough interest for this to go ahead. If Airfix can sell 12,000??

I don't think this will just appeal to us collectors. I think people will buy this like they have bought the Lightning and this now brings in good money. Just as a one-off display piece sitting on top of the TV.

How about a chrome TSR2 like the Lightning, cooooooool

shuttle

20th February 2007, 12:05

Dutchie

20th February 2007, 12:17

OKE shuttle, each corgi model comes out in a lot of different schemes.
A TSR2 will lead to a Connoisseurs-prize:rolleyes:

Greycap Leader

20th February 2007, 12:22

Over the years (on this and the previous forum) Albert Ross has indicated that Corgi look for various 'plus points' before a tooling is commissioned. These include how popular the model will be abroad, the range of schemes and the amount of variants that could be produced from the basic tool. This would not bode well for the TSR.2, a prototype that never reached squadron service.

However, there is a further factor - the ability of Corgi to produce British aircraft that no-one else might touch. The Gladiator, Wellington, Swordfish and Lysander spring to mind. That is the only way I can see Corgi producing a TSR.2!

:) Shuttle

This possibly would have been the greatest multi-role jet aircraft alas we will never know! but surely it has got to be worth a diecast replica. If it was produced would you buy it? I think this is the big question.

Saying that it would not sell well in America is the same problem that the actual aircraft hit.

Dutchie

20th February 2007, 12:24

The real TSR2 wasn't a bestseller:rolleyes:

Dutchie

20th February 2007, 12:27

Perhaps Corgi can do one in 1:144:rolleyes:

Greycap Leader

20th February 2007, 12:28

I understand your enthusiasm for a 1/72 model of the TSR2.

No doubt it would be a best seller...,in the UK !:rolleyes:

It would be the same in Canada, with the CF105 ; in France with the Mirage G8 or Mirage 4000...:cool

Elsewhere however...:confused: !

I would buy the CF105 Arrow as I buy what I like and I have aways liked the look of the Arrow. So you would at least sell one in the UK!:) :) :)

The question is, would you buy the TSR2?? you could have a shelf of prototype aircraft spit, TSR2, CF105 job done!!

Greycap Leader

20th February 2007, 12:30

Perhaps Corgi can do one in 1:144:rolleyes:

No, it has got to be 1/72 to go with the Lightning, 1/144 is to small and I do not collect that.

The Defiant Man

20th February 2007, 15:19

No, it has got to be 1/72 to go with the Lightning, 1/144 is to small and I do not collect that.

Now we are in agreement....:D

Dutchie

20th February 2007, 20:28

OKE, we do it in 1:72:D
But it's a big one!:)

Greycap Leader

5th March 2007, 11:55

I hope Corgi are listening to this, Airfix TSR2 kit (unmade) sells for £78 on the Bay!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250088125550&rd=1&rd=1

I was speaking to a chap at a toyfair and he said that he sold one for £75quid made up!! There is a market for this aircraft, Corgi just need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Agent Carr

5th March 2007, 12:25

Greycap Leader

5th March 2007, 12:36

Corgi are not going to invest large amounts in tooling to make only a single aircraft. Doubt there is a market for the same TRS2 to be made every single year and I cant see Corgi doing fantasy schemes. Lets get real guys.

I will take your comment with a pinch of salt as your favourite aircraft is a Zero!! Your sad man:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

strix1998

5th March 2007, 12:38

I hope Corgi are listening to this, Airfix TSR2 kit (unmade) sells for £78 on the Bay!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250088125550&rd=1&rd=1

You can do better there is one BIN for £50 live at the moment and I paid £31 last week -one went for £37 on Saturday night. It would be nice but from the current Corgi perspective not high on the list of priorities.
As a lending Bank Manager would not be sympathetic if Corgi came along and asked to borrow to finance it......would be turning them down with tears in my eyes

Agent Carr

5th March 2007, 12:45

I will take your comment with a pinch of salt as your favourite aircraft is a Zero!! Your sad man:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Tooling's need to be made with a long term plan of releases not just a one of model. Corgi are not going to be able to sell 5000 TSR2 at £100 each even then I doubt they would cover the costs of research and tooling manufacture. Realistically you are not going to get 10 TRS2 schemes.

CFBC

5th March 2007, 13:06

Realistically you are not going to get 10 TRS2 schemes.

Added the poll out of interest. Would you not buy the "what if" schemes if they were done? These have been detailed?? Does anyone have any pics as I am curious as to what could have been? (or am I being silly).

£100.00 - Nor would I (cough, I do have a resin 1/144th version I paid around that for - :rolleyes: :o ), but how about the £35ish mark? Obviously it would have to be done correctly......

The Defiant Man

5th March 2007, 13:06

Corgi are not going to invest large amounts in tooling to make only a single aircraft. Doubt there is a market for the same TRS2 to be made every single year and I cant see Corgi doing fantasy schemes. Lets get real guys.

Totally agree......and I like the Zero....guess that makes me a sad man too......:mad:

Greycap Leader

5th March 2007, 13:14

Totally agree......and I like the Zero....guess that makes me a sad man too......:mad:

You said it bro!:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Craig

5th March 2007, 13:23

I would love to see a TSR-2 model, but I doubt Corgi are the people to produce it. I'd have the white one, but I'm afraid the other schemes wouldn't interest me, and I'm sure many others would be in the same position. Nice idea, but long term I just don't think viable.

Agent X20

5th March 2007, 13:25

but how about the £35ish mark? Obviously it would have to be done correctly...... .. 1/72.. yeah... £35... things must be cheaper 'oooop North..:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: .. bit early for the Merlot isnt it..?:D

I'd have one... be a sort of a swansong....:D

The Defiant Man

5th March 2007, 14:22

DamienB

5th March 2007, 17:34

I would love to see a TSR-2 model, but I doubt Corgi are the people to produce it.

I agree - not because it won't sell (and let's face it, it will - but it won't sell enough), but because their efforts of recent months have been wildly varying in quality. The TSR2 has some very subtle curves that are missed often enough in mere drawings, and I have little confidence in anybody managing an accurate die-cast, let alone Corgi.

The way to flog greater numbers of any TSR2 die-cast would be to release it as a double pack with an Avro Arrow... that way all the Canadians get forced to buy the TSR2 and all us lot get forced into being an Arrow... :D

CFBC

5th March 2007, 17:47

The way to flog greater numbers of any TSR2 die-cast would be to release it as a double pack with an Avro Arrow... that way all the Canadians get forced to buy the TSR2 and all us lot get forced into being an Arrow... :D

Now your sounding like a Goverment forcing us to spend on what we don't really need. I suppose you would axe it thereafter too.. :D :D

<all in good taste>.

Aviaction

5th March 2007, 18:15

Now your sounding like a Goverment forcing us to spend on what we don't really need. I suppose you would axe it thereafter too.. :D :D

<all in good taste>.

Be nice, in White.
Of course the way this Government's going there would have to be 1x Black scheme for every 5x white ones......:confused:

(or thereabouts?)

Black Gloss TSR2 ...that'd look good. :)

Greycap Leader

6th March 2007, 18:47

Be nice, in White.
Of course the way this Government's going there would have to be 1x Black scheme for every 5x white ones......:confused:

(or thereabouts?)

Black Gloss TSR2 ...that'd look good. :)

Mmmmmm black scheme, very nice:cool: :cool:

Thunder64

6th March 2007, 22:00

Yep I would buy one, but only in white. I suppose there could only be two versions, the Duxford one and the Cosford one!

"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR.2 simply got the first three right."
- Sir Sydney Camm

Hmm, but could we rely on Corgi to get the first three right?

Nimrod48

13th March 2007, 12:21

Agent Carr

13th March 2007, 13:16

It is within the realms of possibility that Corgi could produce such a model, one has only to look at a few of their bus castings to see how few liveries have been used on some of them the Feltham tram & the Q type double decker for instance.
These particular models had a very limited market compared to an aircraft model such as a TSR2, in 1:72 scale it is going to be a lot of metal so the size combined with a limited range of schemes would probably raise the RRP to around £100-110........I would buy at least two one in white & a Rasperry ripple please.

I see your logic but there is far more bus collectors out there than Aviation collectors. Only have to look at the number of Buses for sale at Toy fairs compared to aircraft. Also the diecast mags are full of buses, cars and lorries if your lucky you get two pages on aircraft. Would many people buy a TSR2 at £100. There is so much more you could get for that much dosh.

strix1998

13th March 2007, 15:45

DamienB

13th March 2007, 17:10

You can already buy a diecast TSR2 at 100 quid +. The reason more do not is that it is far too much!

It's the length of a Lancaster with similar wing area to a Tornado - so put the price between Tornado and Lanc and that's what the market would bear...

Dutchie

13th March 2007, 17:42

[QUOTE=DamienB;151601]You can already buy a diecast TSR2 at 100 quid +.
Where?:rolleyes:

DamienB

13th March 2007, 18:08

http://www.collectorsaircraft.com/ECOM_Detail.asp?ID=1590

strix1998

13th March 2007, 18:12

but 1/72 please................

Agent Carr

13th March 2007, 23:18

If Corgi were to offer strictly limited numbers and exclusivity suggest that this is one jet model that collectors would be prepared to preorder and pay a premium on.

Ps Corgi my deposit cheques are ready when you are.....................

Corgi are not going to fork out £40k for one tooling. It is pie in the sky stuff even to think that they would even consider doing a TSR2.

Greycap Leader

13th March 2007, 23:48

Corgi are not going to fork out £40k for one tooling. It is pie in the sky stuff even to think that they would even consider doing a TSR2.

When I see the Corgi personnel at this years roadshow I will get their arm up their back. On a more serious point I am thinking of handing an information package to them about this great aircraft and tell them to read this thread! The last conversation I had with them, they were looking for new ideas on different aircraft so I will give it my best shot and see what happens.

Agent C,

If all you are going to say is,

Corgi will never produce a TSR2, Corgi will never produce a TSR2 , Corgi will never produce a TSR2 , Corgi will never produce a TSR2 , Corgi will never produce a TSR2 , Corgi will never produce a TSR2

You point is taken but you are getting abit repetitive so could you please stop it!!

Agent Carr

14th March 2007, 00:01

When I see the Corgi personnel at this years roadshow I will get their arm up their back. On a more serious point I am thinking of handing an information package to them about this great aircraft and tell them to read this thread! The last conversation I had with them, they were looking for new ideas on different aircraft so I will give it my best shot and see what happens.

Agent C,

If all you are going to say is,

Corgi will never produce a TSR2, Corgi will never produce a TSR2 , Corgi will never produce a TSR2 , Corgi will never produce a TSR2 , Corgi will never produce a TSR2 , Corgi will never produce a TSR2

You point is taken but you are getting abit repetitive so could you please stop it!!

I live in the real world. Need to give Corgi proper suggestions not pipe dreams . We want them to listen so we need to be sensible. I have given up all hope of a Diane or Betty however would be pleased with an F3 Tornado which is a sensible choice with decent potential.

Greycap Leader

14th March 2007, 00:51

I have given up all hope of a Diane or Betty

Agent C,

I don't really want to know about your ex-girlfriends:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

You forgot George, Frank, Oscar and Kate.

Agent Carr

14th March 2007, 01:16

Agent C,

I don't really want to know about your ex-girlfriends:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

You forgot George, Frank, Oscar and Kate.

Forgot about them. Off to bed to dream about Kate.

Red 2

14th March 2007, 05:48

The Corgi people attending the BoB Day will not be responsible for product planning...they are marketing the new 'Precision Replicas' range so please bear that in mind chaps as I am sure you will.

Nimrod48

15th March 2007, 09:48

Given that there are a lot of people that are more than happy to buy Star Wars figures and models, and such like which are total fantasy why not "what if schemes". OK you are going to upset a lot of people but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't sell?

If Corgi were to do one authentic model would the purist be happy (or least less unhappy) if it was subsidised by a series of "what if" schemes?

I would happily buy at leat two TSR2 models one being the prototype in anti flash white & my choice for a fantasy livery as stated earlier would be the raspberry ripple scheme.
Corgi are not beyond using poetic licence on their models when it suits them, just look at the wheels on the modern truck range, or some of the seating arrangements on their model buses.

The Defiant Man

15th March 2007, 10:54

just look at the wheels on the modern truck range, or some of the seating arrangements on their model buses.

I don't think you'll get many folks on here admitting to doing that....:D

Greycap Leader

29th April 2007, 14:25

After some talk about the TSR2 my brother picked up one of those classic Airfix kits and decided to make it up and add it to he's collection and re-kindle he's childhood hobby!

As we have not seen one done with the undercarriage up, here it is airbrakes open, undercarriage up, bomb bay open and on a custom built stand. Just click the links, ENJOY!

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR21.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR22.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR23.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR24.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR26.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR27.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR28.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR29.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s281/GreycapLeader/TSR210.jpg

Also anyone know where to get some Tiger sqn decals? as next on the list is a Tiger sqn TSR2!!

DCRanger

29th April 2007, 16:35

Very nice and I like the stand too. Come on Corgi.

CFBC

30th April 2007, 14:27

If a TSr2 was produced, what would the levels (in terms of pricing) that people would pay?

Trying to get some feedback here. Obviously depending on who produces it? Either Corgi, HM or GJ perhaps? (Who knows)

1/72nd scale of course! :)

sniperUK

30th April 2007, 14:54

Sizewise its longer than a Lancaster with the same span as a Lightning. Very limited choice unless they go into "what if" schemes but very collectable. I would be willing to pay in the £60-75, as I got close to that for one of my spare kits that seems like a good price.

CFBC

30th April 2007, 15:01

Thanks Sniper. Anyone else?

And, if you have not voted. VOTE NOW as this could become a REALITY! Hence the question!!!!! :)

strix1998

30th April 2007, 15:53

£60 ish is realistic and were it to be Corgi I would be happy to preorder would probably buy the what ifs as well------

Greycap Leader

30th April 2007, 16:51

Red 2

30th April 2007, 17:10

I think 70ish quid is a fair smack for it, I would buy it. Also can we ban Agent Carr from this thread as he is only going to bring negative comments.

I would pre-order until the cows come home for this one!

I hope Corgi produce the TSR2 as I think they will do it justice, there are too many lines on the aircraft with HM, Witty is just carp (and the wheels will be stuck down) and I don't think Gemini will take this on.

Agreed on all points Greycap and, re AC, too young...he won't know what we are talking about....hopefully.:D

Re the wheels being stuck down, that could actually be rather like the original which had a few undercarriage problems. Was drooling over Cosford's TSR2 just last Thursday..:cool

Craig

30th April 2007, 21:32

I think given the relative lack of schemes for such a model people would have to be prepared to pay a bit more than is otherwise the case. I reckon £70-£80 would be fair. :)

Greycap Leader

30th April 2007, 21:45

I think given the relative lack of schemes for such a model people would have to be prepared to pay a bit more than is otherwise the case. I reckon £70-£80 would be fair. :)

I did say 70ish, they will sell more at this price.

strix1998

1st May 2007, 08:34

I did say 70ish, they will sell more at this price.

given sensibly sized issue numbers.............

CFBC

1st May 2007, 08:52

given sensibly sized issue numbers.............

Ok, on that basis.. What would you guys think the issue numbers should be?

I know Airfix sold 15,000 kits did they not? :confused: :D (I think).

sniperUK

1st May 2007, 09:17

Ok, on that basis.. What would you guys think the issue numbers should be?

I know Airfix sold 15,000 kits did they not? :confused: :D (I think).

15-20,000 kits sold it was a bigger market but I think if properly advertised in the aviation press like Flypast,Aeroplane,Aircraft Illustrated etc a lot could be sold to casual buyers.Run wise say a first release of XR219 the first one to fly 1964, with smaller amounts say 1500 of XR220 the Cosford airframe and of XR222 the Duxford airframe,.This gives a total run of just short of 5,000 with like Airfix no future release meaning it stays very collectable.

strix1998

1st May 2007, 10:20

Seem sensible to me and whilst it might offend the purist collector what if? liveries would also be completely acceptable to me. Camouflaged examples of the Airfix kit also turn up on Ebay from time to time and sell- accept though these could be purchased for repaints.
This is one model where I would definitely collect all examples produced......

Seafire47

1st May 2007, 12:23

I think given the relative lack of schemes for such a model people would have to be prepared to pay a bit more than is otherwise the case. I reckon £70-£80 would be fair. :)

Fair it may be, but that puts it well outside my league. Much as I'd love one, I've always accepted that a diecast TSR2 is never going to happen at a price that I can afford.

As for schemes - I find it hard to believe that any but the most dedicated nutter is going to buy more than one of the white schemes at the prices being suggested just to get a different serial number!

On run sizes - Airfix may have sold 10,000 kits, but don't forget that they were £16.99, so not really comparable with £70-£80.

Sorry if this sounds negative. If it happens, you guys are OK with the price and it doesn't sink Corgi then I'll be happy.:)

DCRanger

1st May 2007, 12:48

This gives a total run of just short of 5,000 with like Airfix no future release meaning it stays very collectable.

I agree with Seafire47, much as I would love to add a TSR2 to my collection I wouldn't spend that much money on one. (I'm also going to miss the dumping and de-certing policy). 5000 I suspect would not be enough to justify a new casting to Corgi, so I think this is only viable if there are enough people prepared to buy a few "what if schemes".

sniperUK

1st May 2007, 14:16

5000 I suspect would not be enough to justify a new casting to Corgi, so I think this is only viable if there are enough people prepared to buy a few "what if schemes".

I don't think there would be enough interest in "what if" aircraft. I think this should be a flagship product to push whatever company it is into the minds of aviation enthusiasts using lots of advertising and a top class model .It may be a loss leader but it could do wonders for the range by increasing awareness.

Angels one-five

1st May 2007, 15:13

I think that the TSR2 would look fantastic in diecast, but I'm afraid that I would never buy one; my money would have to go elsewhere. Even assuming that I had a change of heart and parted with cash, I really really wouldn't buy more than one. I think schemes are really limited, 'what if' camo just doesn't do it for me I'm sorry.

I don't see how this could ne economically viable, unless as Sniper has suggested, it's a 'loss leader'; although I think that's generally done by businesses who are making a profit elsewhere!

I have the airfix TSR2 stuck away in a cupboard, so I'll make do with that in this case! Sorry chaps.:o

CFBC

1st May 2007, 15:30

Fair it may be, but that puts it well outside my league. Much as I'd love one, I've always accepted that a diecast TSR2 is never going to happen at a price that I can afford.

As for schemes - I find it hard to believe that any but the most dedicated nutter is going to buy more than one of the white schemes at the prices being suggested just to get a different serial number!

On run sizes - Airfix may have sold 10,000 kits, but don't forget that they were £16.99, so not really comparable with £70-£80.

Sorry if this sounds negative. If it happens, you guys are OK with the price and it doesn't sink Corgi then I'll be happy.:)

Seafire, don't worry as arguements for and against are whatI am looking for to put a straong case forward to who ever. ;) :)

Constructive comments always appreciated! ;)

Craig

1st May 2007, 15:41

Well to give my view on it, I think a TSR-2 could potentially be a "winner", but the price would have to be relatively high to make it pay. "what if" schemes might sell to some, but I don't think enough to make a new casting viable. I'd certainly have a white one personally, but I'm not interested in "what if" schemes and think the market for such modesl would be rather limited. Overall, I'd love to have one, and like I said I would pay a relative premium for one, but I'm sorry to say that if anyone thinks Corgi can sell anything like 10,000 they may well be deluding themselves. Sorry guys. :(

The Defiant Man

1st May 2007, 23:33

I would echo some of the more recent sentiments....I would be interested in one, but not the "what if" schemes......certainly not at the prices mentioned.....c'mon, how many of you would really buy half a dozen "what ifs" at £70-£80.....not enough to make it a viable proposition, I'll bet.....the Airfix sales are immaterial - a totally different market.....I really can't see this being viable for Corgi.....

Martin Bull

2nd May 2007, 06:39

OK, I'm not a 'jet man' but as the muggins who actually raised the TSR-2 idea at the Corgi meeting here's my 2 ha'porth....

There are some sensible postings above and a model possibly doesn't make financial sense. But it's not giving away a big secret to say that the idea is at least 'on the table' at Corgi. No-one can really deny that it's a very attractive aircraft with a large 'cult' following. On the one hand, there are very few schemes....

So I'd advise TSR-2 fans not to hold their breath. But there is one glimmer of hope - 'Museum sales' came in for some favourable comment at the Corgi meeting and a TSR-2 model could go down well at the Duxford and Cosford shops - just remember how the models of 'S-for-Sugar' went on and on at the RAF Museum at full SRP until they'd all gone......

strix1998

2nd May 2007, 12:22

but hope for a positive outcome maybe a brave choice is needed at this stage of the ball game.................

CFBC

14th May 2007, 21:33

So, out of an active logon of members being around 130 per day we have 56 votes! C'mon.... We need to know if you want a TSR2 or not.....

I have to suggest it to one company or another pretty soon! You wanted the Forum to become more active, we are and making the effort. It's down to it's members now! YOU.....

Please vote.

:)

uksubs

14th May 2007, 22:12

von hitchofen

15th May 2007, 16:14

I think a Mk 14 spitfire would be a better bet than a TSR2
I want a Martin Baker MK5 but it not going to happen but thats life :(;)

i would have both! Always wanted a Griffon Spit, but MB5 always looked well :cool
not much call for planes with the letter P in a circle on their sides
still "Captive Eagle" did

It would be a big model as well in 1/72 but I have to agree, got more chance of a 1/72 Javelin or Swift from Corgi

Javelin would be nice but a Sea Vixen would be better

Dambusters

16th May 2007, 00:42

The TSR2 has my vote!

This is an iconic aircraft like the Lightning (English Electric that is!) and if it had gone into production it would have been a world leader in aircraft design and multi-role capability. But the best bit was that it would have been ALL BRITISH! and that is why I want one.

There seems to be an in-difference with this model, I have heard it said 'Corgi wont do it' 'not enough schemes' blah blah blah

But I think if this model is presented properly with the sad story that surrounds it, it would sell well. I am sure all the people that worked on it would buy one and once it is in circulation there is alot of fathers that would say "I remember that aircraft" and buy them for a display piece, not necessarily a collector but someone who was maybe a boy or a young man at that time.

I think this aircraft showed that the British Avation industry could still stick it to the rest of the world! and produce an aircraft that was, like the Spitfire, Lancaster etc...... that could be developed to do specific tasks and be modified through its flying life.

strix1998

16th May 2007, 08:38

And if there is any sway needing to be swung with a potential diecast manufacturer hope the your comments do it........

Agent X20

16th May 2007, 12:02

This sorta stuff comes under the very popular but one livery/type...

bit like Concorde...

Also mentioned on the light planes section S6B... then how about a 'Jason' .. a Ryan monoplane... a Gloster Whittle, an FD2:cool: (sounds like a Frog kit listing...)......... possibly some mileage when you can hang onto your stock, but not in today's environment.. (Wright Flyer's most probably aint too popular a subject in the head kennel)

....be nice to see a white bird though.. even if Mr D is guarantor for the excess 25,000 models..:D

Dambusters

16th May 2007, 12:08

Agent X20

16th May 2007, 12:12

Just havin a bite to eat at me desk...:D .. I'll drop the periscope...:D and let you all get back to the green / grey / brown things...:D :D :D nice to see that you are going to underwrite the 1/72 TSR2.. you put those kids up as collaterol......??:eek: :eek: :eek:

Agent Carr

16th May 2007, 12:21

Dambusters

16th May 2007, 12:28

Nice post. Missing the vital point. You may have sold 10,000 but what about the rest???

Would be more popular than a Zero mate,

Agent Carr

16th May 2007, 12:40

Would be more popular than a Zero mate,

Zero has done pretty well. First Tsr2 would sell out but that would be the demand filled.

The Defiant Man

16th May 2007, 14:58

Zero has done pretty well. First Tsr2 would sell out but that would be the demand filled.

Zero has done as well as most others......spot on about TSR2 demand.....

Dambusters

16th May 2007, 15:45

Yeah, the Zero has done pretty well but I do not have one in my collection and i am not bothered by that fact.

TSR2 on the other hand is a different proposition. This is an aircraft I would glady make space for and I quite like the idea of the 'what if' livery's 617sqn :cool

But I will say this, it has to be Corgi that produce it. Interchangable undercarriage + a pilot figure so we can have the aircraft flying on the stand.

The Original question on this thread was "do you want one to be produced?" not "do you think one would be produced?" remember that.

Agent Carr

16th May 2007, 16:08

shuttle

16th May 2007, 16:19

I can think of two I would buy - the Cosford one and the Duxford one!!

:D Shuttle

shuttle

16th May 2007, 16:25

Just to remind you of the size of the beast, here is my Airfix example along side a Corgi Lancaster and Lightning.

:D Shuttle

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/crawfie65/090d5fa9.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/crawfie65/05b3659d.jpg

Agent Carr

16th May 2007, 16:31

Looking at the size that would be about a £60 lump. Lovely model. The question is do you need a diecast version if you have an excellent plastic version.

chally2

16th May 2007, 16:58

[QUOTE=Dambusters;162349]The TSR2 has my vote!

This is an iconic aircraft like the Lightning (English Electric that is!) and if it had gone into production it would have been a world leader in aircraft design and multi-role capability. But the best bit was that it would have been ALL BRITISH! and that is why I want one.

There seems to be an in-difference with this model, I have heard it said 'Corgi wont do it' 'not enough schemes' blah blah blah

But I think if this model is presented properly with the sad story that surrounds it, it would sell well. I am sure all the people that worked on it would buy one and once it is in circulation there is alot of fathers that would say "I remember that aircraft" and buy them for a display piece, not necessarily a collector but someone who was maybe a boy or a young man at that time.

QUOTE]

The TSR is stuff of legend around here, being near Boscombe Down, with stories passed between generations. I think a model shop in Salisbury had 90 (i may be wrong) Airfix TSR2 kits when released which had all gone within the first hour (a lot of pre-orders) and a lot of older blokes didn't go for it as they don't do models for one reason or another!
TSR2 would sell to many people who do not collect or even have a passing interest in aircraft as it really is iconic,not for what it was or did,but what it could have been and the story is so political, with many thinking the scrapping of TSR2 was confirmation of the end of Britain as a great power.:(
Mmmm.......yes, i think i might buy one:)

Greycap Leader

16th May 2007, 18:48

Not a clear cut question. Yes I want one but I do not want more than one?. One shot casting. We need to put the sensible hat when looking at the TSR2.

It is a clear question AC, you either want one or you don't?

If Corgi produce it you will get your one and if Corgi produce the 'what ifs' then people will have the choice of buying them but they will have to be smaller run sizes of course.

Would you buy a blue, white and red one?

DamienB

29th August 2007, 10:25

Cough, TSR2, cough...

sniperUK

29th August 2007, 10:30

Cough, TSR2, cough...

With panel lines:eek: :eek: :)

chris1966m

29th August 2007, 14:42

Cough, TSR2, cough...

Hi Damien B

I'll quote a saying about the TSR2 made by Sir Sidney Camm

"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR-2 simply got the first three right"

for a diecast representation of the TSR2, i'll add a 5th dimension....VIABILITY (an acceptable return on investment...economic sense)....which i believe the model would just not uphold

just two finished airframes XR 220 and XR 222, aren't exactly going to persuade HM to make the TSR2

but if they would make the TSR2 then i'd surely buy it :D :D

i WILL pass the suggestion on

Chris M

hawkonevoodoo

29th August 2007, 17:48

The TSR2 has already been passed on about 20 times now.

DamienB

30th August 2007, 23:47

for a diecast representation of the TSR2, i'll add a 5th dimension....VIABILITY (an acceptable return on investment...economic sense)....which i believe the model would just not uphold

Airfix certainly made a fat profit on doing it... anything TSR2 still sells - anything!

There are plenty of 'what if' schemes that a diecast model of it could use, not just the overall white of the prototypes.

eismeer

31st August 2007, 00:20

Airfix certainly made a fat profit on doing it... anything TSR2 still sells - anything!

There are plenty of 'what if' schemes that a diecast model of it could use, not just the overall white of the prototypes.

Also agree with the "what if" scenario.

I know a lot of collectors wouldn't touch it if it never flew in the colours depicted (fantasy schemes) but there are also a hell of a lot of collectors who would buy anything TSR2;)

Once saw a painting of a TSR2 flying in RAF cammo and it looked as good as anything flying today:cool:

Seafire47

31st August 2007, 13:35

I don't think too much should be read into the sell out of 10,000 Airfix TRS2 kits when trying to make a case for a diecast version. Remember, they were only £17 in the shops. Who's going to produce a diecast of that size for anything like that price?

Agent X20

31st August 2007, 13:37

You can buy smaller scale ones.. they are not sold out... Imagine all that white with the black panel lines....:eek: :(

sniperUK

31st August 2007, 13:39

You can buy smaller scale ones.. they are not sold out... Imagine all that white with the black panel lines....:eek: :(

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: thats what I am dreading (very pale blue works well)

Agent X20

31st August 2007, 13:46

Thing is it would need something as it would be just as bad in pure white.... doesn't matter in 1/200.....:D

DamienB

31st August 2007, 15:26

You can buy smaller scale ones.. they are not sold out...

Unsurprising as they're crap...

Agent X20

31st August 2007, 15:54

Whadda mean...??

http://cgi.ebay.com/CafeReo-Big-Bird-2-10-BAC-TSR-2-1-144-Miniature-Model_W0QQitemZ230165697943QQihZ013QQcategoryZ1189 QQcmdZViewItem

http://www.collectorsaircraft.com/ECOM_Detail.asp?ID=1590

he he.....

hawkonevoodoo

1st September 2007, 03:19

And how many paint schemes did you say this plane comes in? This is just being rhetorical.

DamienB

1st September 2007, 10:18

Agent - the CAM one's nice, but at 100 quid they can take a hike. The little plastic one is rubbish.

hawkonevoodoo - why be rhetorical?

As well as the prototype white scheme, there is documented evidence of the paint scheme for the initial production aircraft, and a plethora of "what-if" schemes to go with, such as those on the Xtradecal sheets:

http://decals.kitreview.com/decals/x72059reviewrk_1.htm

...and plenty of others, as many as your imagination can go with...

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/public3/baceaglet2.jpg

Agent X20

1st September 2007, 10:44

Still prefer my executive Jet....

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/AgentX20/TSR2.jpg

apologies to Mr Burke...

hawkonevoodoo

1st September 2007, 16:51

But how many people would buy 2 or 3 "what if's"? It's not just this plane but "what if's" of other planes. Don't take this as an official stand, this is just my own look at it. I have passed on suggestions for this plane several times and it is up to the people at Hobby Master to decide what they will and won't make.

DamienB

2nd September 2007, 10:46

But how many people would buy 2 or 3 "what if's"?

No idea, that's a job for a market researcher isn't it.

Is the viability of a mould reliant on people buying more than one? I certainly rarely buy more than one of any diecast - exceptions being when it's an aircraft type I have a particular fondness for (Bucc, Lightning, Vulcan) and when the model is a good one (so no big lineup of Jags for me despite my love of the real thing!).

scaleplanes

4th September 2007, 08:23

Agent - the CAM one's nice, but at 100 quid they can take a hike. The little plastic one is rubbish.

So what you want is a small(1/144) TSR.2, that is.....not plastic......not rubbish.......and not 100 quid ;)

DamienB

4th September 2007, 10:16

No, 1/72 will do fine.

gary ford

4th September 2007, 11:23

Airfix produced 15,000 TSR 2 Kits, and Airfix completly under-estimated the requirment on this model with all 15,000 sold in 7 days from Airfix and out of the shops in a little over a month. They reckon up to 50,000 kit would have would have sold. Not bad for an aircraft that never realy took off operationally. Even Bae still have conferences about the impact of TSR 2 today. Remember TSR 2 Lives on in the Tornado, as most of the cocpit layout and other technological advancements from TSR-2 were incorporated into Tornado.

ZS-VAN

4th September 2007, 12:31

DamienB

4th September 2007, 13:50

Probably because it wasn't...!

There are some vague similarities in cockpit layout I'd agree but no specific technology transfer... bear in mind there's 15 years or so between them and TSR2 was on the cusp between analogue and digital computing with a mix of analogue and early digital gear.

gary ford

4th September 2007, 14:56

TSR-2 was canx in 1964, Tornado first flew in 1975 and I bet i was on the Drawing boards a long time before that so the gap is quite close. There was more than the odd bit went in to Tornado.

Agent X20

4th September 2007, 15:46

the TSR2 technology would have flowed over into the MRCA... which then much much later became the Tornado..

gary ford

4th September 2007, 16:36

The first airfix kit of the Tornado released in the early to mid 70s was titled MRCA not Tornado and came in the multi colour scheem for all the Europeans involved ie UK, Germany and Italy.

Tornado help save British Aircraft Corporation (BAC) after the cancelling of TSR-2.

TSR-2 was canxed in favor of the F 1-11 but we could not afford that aircraft so we had to go with the F4 Phantom in 1967/8 as a stop gap. It was at this time the RAF started to use the Buccs. After the running down of the V Bomber fleet after transfer of the main buckets of Sunshine to the Polaris Subs the RAF was fighting for a stratigic role in the late 60s.

Harold Wilson the then Labour Prime Minister was very clever he turned the RAF and Navy service chiefs on each other and watched them shred each other apart in a contest for future funding. Nobody won or lost but it resulted in the cancellation of the Carriers. The RAF stated it could bomb any where in the world so there was no need for the carriers. 15 years later this action would result in the RAF having to do as they stated and cobble together the famous Falklands Black buck raids. Also with no carriers we did not have good AEW and this resulted in the Navy having to loose ships to protect the main part of the fleet.

This is a very intresting time and its worth reading up on.

DamienB

4th September 2007, 18:46

TSR-2 was canx in 1964, Tornado first flew in 1975 and I bet i was on the Drawing boards a long time before that so the gap is quite close.

And the TSR2 was on the drawing boards a long time before that - 15 years is about right. MRCA was a multinational project with little if any commonality, carried out years later by mostly different people.

There was more than the odd bit went in to Tornado.

Name one item.

scaleplanes

5th September 2007, 12:17

And the TSR2 was on the drawing boards a long time before that - 15 years is about right. MRCA was a multinational project with little if any commonality, carried out years later by mostly different people..

BAC started work on the VGA (forerunner to MRCA) as early as 1965. So what you are saying is that BAC threw away all its work and data on TSR2(yes, I know they were told to) and started from scratch! Or maybe those people who you say worked on TSR2 but didn’t work on VGA or MRCA, had intellectual rights to their work and refused to pass it on.

If you read really deep into MRCA, you will find that the aircraft is far more closer to the BAC design then that of the original MRA75. BAC’s responsibility on MRCA was for the forward fuselage and the avionics (among other areas), which by no coincidence, has more than a resemblance to TSR2.

Name one item.

You are quick to ask people to prove their comments but can you offer proof that MRCA doesn’t incude technology from TSR2?

Here’s a few for starters: -

Terrain following radar
NAVWAS
Doppler projected moving map display
Data on all-moving tailarons

DamienB

5th September 2007, 13:11

BAC started work on the VGA (forerunner to MRCA) as early as 1965. So what you are saying is that BAC threw away all its work and data on TSR2(yes, I know they were told to) and started from scratch!

That's more or less what happened.

BAC’s responsibility on MRCA was for the forward fuselage and the avionics (among other areas), which by no coincidence, has more than a resemblance to TSR2.

So you're saying because Tornado has a slab-sided pointy forward fuselage it's based on the TSR2? There's not a single common item. Not a single common panel.

You are quick to ask people to prove their comments but can you offer proof that MRCA doesn’t incude technology from TSR2?

If this is the sum total of your argument you really are grasping at straws. You cannot prove a negative, and this kind of debating style merely illustrates your lack of real knowledge on the subject. Gary said TSR2 'technology' was in the Tornado. It isn't. This is a simple fact. I'm not being 'smug', I'm correcting information that is incorrect. I've done a great deal of reading on the subject over the last few years, including many hours at the National Archives digging through paperwork from the time; I'm not making this stuff up.

Here’s a few for starters: -

Terrain following radar

Tornado - Texas Instruments
TSR2 - Ferranti (never entirely finished before cancellation)

NAVWAS

That's a Jaguar system.

Doppler projected moving map display

I guess from the way you use the phrase you don't understand it. Doppler is a type of radar; the concept of a projected moving map display predated the TSR2 and was to be used in it, but the commonality is only the concept not the hardware. TSR2 was to use a sideways-looking radar to map the terrain as it flew, updating its track against known points on the way. Tornado has no such system.

Data on all-moving tailarons

Straws once again - all aeronautical research gets fed back into future projects but there is no commonality between the tailerons of TSR2 and those of Tornado in terms of construction or control systems.

They are simply different aircraft, that's all there is to it. Is it so hard to believe?

scaleplanes

5th September 2007, 14:36

So you're saying because Tornado has a slab-sided pointy forward fuselage it's based on the TSR2? There's not a single common item. Not a single common panel.

OK, there are no obvious visually identical parts transferred. from TSR2 to Tornado but I’m talking technology and concepts. There has to be a lineage between the avionics of the two aircraft-that’s how progression works. Your adamant that there is not a single part commonality in the cockpit of the two machines - not a single switch or dial?

If this is the sum total of your argument you really are grasping at straws. You cannot prove a negative, and this kind of debating style merely illustrates your lack of real knowledge on the subject. Gary said TSR2 'technology' was in the Tornado. It isn't. This is a simple fact. I'm not being 'smug', I'm correcting information that is incorrect. I've done a great deal of reading on the subject over the last few years, including many hours at the National Archives digging through paperwork from the time; I'm not making this stuff up.

You wouldn’t be proving a negative - you’d be backing up your argument that there was no transfer of technology.

Tornado - Texas Instruments
TSR2 - Ferranti (never entirely finished before cancellation)

Companies do exchange information - it’s called swings and roundabouts.

That's a Jaguar system.

Sorry slipped up, NAVWAS is Jaguar, meant NAV/ATS

I guess from the way you use the phrase you don't understand it. Doppler is a type of radar; the concept of a projected moving map display predated the TSR2 and was to be used in it, but the commonality is only the concept not the hardware. TSR2 was to use a sideways-looking radar to map the terrain as it flew, updating its track against known points on the way. Tornado has no such system.

TSR2 had a moving map display driven by DOPPLER and inertial inputs

Straws once again - all aeronautical research gets fed back into future projects but there is no commonality between the tailerons of TSR2 and those of Tornado in terms of construction or control systems.

I did say “data on all moving tailerons”

They are simply different aircraft, that's all there is to it. Is it so hard to believe?

If what you are saying is true and there isn’t a single piece of technology transfer from TSR2 to MRCA when there was only a few years separating them , then I’m stunned - no wonder military programs cost so much!

DamienB

5th September 2007, 16:50

OK, there are no obvious visually identical parts transferred. from TSR2 to Tornado but I’m talking technology and concepts.

The original quote was "Remember TSR 2 Lives on in the Tornado, as most of the cocpit layout and other technological advancements from TSR-2 were incorporated into". This is not correct, and this is what I was responding to.

You're now moving onto common concepts; of course there are common concepts and I agree 100% with that - very many of them. But that's not technology transfer.

There has to be a lineage between the avionics of the two aircraft-that’s how progression works. Your adamant that there is not a single part commonality in the cockpit of the two machines - not a single switch or dial?

Will a single switch make you happy that the Tornado is some sort of TSR2 descendant then? How about a single bolt? Or a washer?

There may indeed be a lineage that links particular items in terms of the people who designed certain things, or the concepts that drive them, but again you could equally say this of any other aircraft built in the UK before the Tornado.

Tornado was a ground-up new project and they started with clean sheets, not by unearthing the blueprints from the TSR2 or looking for bits they could use from it.

If what you are saying is true and there isn’t a single piece of technology transfer from TSR2 to MRCA when there was only a few years separating them , then I’m stunned - no wonder military programs cost so much!

That's progress for you as well. As an example, the early computers used in aircraft were extremely unreliable by modern standards, very heavy and needed miles of cabling for all the different signals being sent. Digital computing is more reliable, more compact, lighter, and needs nowhere near the amount of cabling thus saves again on space and weight. Put yourself in charge of the project - what point is there in saving money by using off the shelf older equipment when you can develop newer stuff that is more capable and gives you more room for other items?

CFBC

5th September 2007, 19:14

Guys,

All the TSR2 talk has now been moved into the TSR2 thread! ;) :) (or the best I can do anyway).

Scaleplanes and Damien. Please keep it about what the threads are about and diecast aircraft too. Your both knowledgeable and I am sure you can both have a decent conversation.

That's nice chaps! ;) :)

chally2

5th September 2007, 20:02

Think i'll ask some people who actually worked on TSR2 at Boscombe Down.
I like the story about the time TSR2 blatted away from a Lightning which was on reheat........on one engine;)
Oh yeah, i think somebody should give it a go, i mean everything else sells out and does not get dumped,does it?:)

Red 2

5th September 2007, 20:10

My small claim to fame was a relation who was a designer on it and was so hacked off on cancellation that he moved to the US to work for McDonnell Douglas. :rolleyes:

If someone out there has the guts to produce a 1/72 version and can afford to hold stock (that would seem to rule out a certain manufacturer at present:( ), it would IMHO be a slow but steady seller through the IWM sites. Would have little more than curiosity value outside the UK.

scaleplanes

5th September 2007, 22:58

Tornado was a ground-up new project and they started with clean sheets, not by unearthing the blueprints from the TSR2 or looking for bits they could use from it.

DamienB, Rather than playing with semantics to argue your position and before you make any further public comment on this subject, may I suggest that you read the book "TSR2 Precision Attack to Tornado" by John Forbat, a senior engineer on the TSR2 project. Much of the TSR2 R&D made into the Tornado, not just concepts but real work!

Crazy George

6th September 2007, 02:50

I'm a Yank and I'd buy a TSR-2. If someone did a "what if" I'd buy that also.
It was a truly beautiful plane, and I will buy the upcoming Aerofax book.

DamienB

6th September 2007, 11:21

DamienB, Rather than playing with semantics to argue your position and before you make any further public comment on this subject, may I suggest that you read the book "TSR2 Precision Attack to Tornado" by John Forbat, a senior engineer on the TSR2 project. Much of the TSR2 R&D made into the Tornado, not just concepts but real work!

I've read it. John was a senior engineer at Vickers Guided Weapons and worked on the nav/attack system of the TSR2 but left Vickers in 1962, 3 years before the TSR2 was cancelled and long before the MRCA project began. It makes no mention of any TSR2 technology going into Tornado that I recall. Indeed the Tornado is mentioned just 4 times in the whole volume that I can see (the book's title is frankly misleading) - and in each case he is referring to people moving on or concepts ending up being brought forward into the Tornado project, not hardware.

Perhaps you could point out the pages you are referring to?

DCRanger

6th September 2007, 12:37

All the TSR2 talk has now been moved into the TSR2 thread! ;) :) (or the best I can do anyway).

You mean you failed to move it to the FP Forum?:D

zed550

6th September 2007, 14:47

looks like someone thinks they are always correct:D :D :D :D :D

shuttle

6th September 2007, 15:53

As we mentioned earlier, please keep it civilised - we are only discussing some aircraft.... I would hate it if we start to get like the 'Flypast Forum'!!!

I would only think that it is logical to suggest that technology developed for an earlier aircraft (even if it went down the pan) would obviously be available to use by a later aircraft. I would back this up by observing that when I spoke recently to a very knowledgeable ex-Ferranti engineer he did say that the TSR.2 terrain following radar was very advanced and that it was used to influence later designs.

:) Shuttle

zed550

6th September 2007, 16:56

this is what most of us think that tsr 2 technology was used in later designs ie tornado,jaguar etc.
i will give an example from the motorcycle industry regarding parts. kawasaki use lots of the same parts on different models, yet your average punter will think he needs the exact part for his particular bike.

scaleplanes

6th September 2007, 17:43

I've read it. John was a senior engineer at Vickers Guided Weapons and worked on the nav/attack system of the TSR2 but left Vickers in 1962, 3 years before the TSR2 was cancelled and long before the MRCA project began. It makes no mention of any TSR2 technology going into Tornado that I recall. Indeed the Tornado is mentioned just 4 times in the whole volume that I can see (the book's title is frankly misleading) - and in each case he is referring to people moving on or concepts ending up being brought forward into the Tornado project, not hardware.

Perhaps you could point out the pages you are referring to?

Quoting verbatim Roland Beamont: "... without the challenge and stimulus of the TSR.2 in the 1960s, the TECHNOLOGY vitally needed for the TORNADO and EFA (Eurofighter) might well have not been available to this country"

.......or maybe this guy is wrong too!!!

scaleplanes

6th September 2007, 17:54

.......or maybe this guy is wrong too!!!

Apologies, frustration setting in!

DamienB

6th September 2007, 18:05

Quoting verbatim Roland Beamont: "... without the challenge and stimulus of the TSR.2 in the 1960s, the TECHNOLOGY vitally needed for the TORNADO and EFA (Eurofighter) might well have not been available to this country"

.......or maybe this guy is wrong too!!!

What Roland was saying was that had Britain practically given up developing advanced military aircraft pre-TSR2, we'd have been in no position at all to develop MRCA. In that he was right. I have a hard time understanding why anybody would equate that statement to "TSR2 technology is in the Tornado".

scaleplanes

6th September 2007, 18:18

What Roland was saying was that had Britain practically given up developing advanced military aircraft pre-TSR2, we'd have been in no position at all to develop MRCA. In that he was right. I have a hard time understanding why anybody would equate that statement to "TSR2 technology is in the Tornado".

.....OH MY GOD!!!

shuttle

6th September 2007, 18:29

Damien,

I thought I explained it rather eloquently in my post:

'I would back this up by observing that when I spoke recently to a very knowledgeable ex-Ferranti engineer he did say that the TSR.2 terrain following radar was very advanced and that it was used to influence later designs.'

This included all later Ferranti radars (Blue Parrot, Blue Fox, Blue Vixen etc). You are correct if you think that no actual physical TSR.2 components went into the 'Tonka' but surely you must see that many of the developments in the TSR.2 project went into subsequent aircraft - including the Tornado. It's called 'knowledge transfer'. It reminds me of the American X-20 'Dynasoar' - canned but parts of the developments went into the Shuttle programme (heat shields etc).

Good grief, I'm knackered after that!!

Anyway, back on thread.....

HobbyMaster/Witty/Corgi/Dragon/FOV/Century etc etc, please, for Pete's sake, make a 1/72 scale TSR.2 and deliver us from this hell!!

:D Shuttle

Agent X20

6th September 2007, 18:39

the American X-20 .. that'll be Uncle Bob....:D

shuttle

6th September 2007, 18:42

Agent,

It looked like something Sir Gerry of Anderson would have had in one of his shows (why hasn't he ever been knighted?)

:D Shuttle

DamienB

6th September 2007, 19:32

You are correct if you think that no actual physical TSR.2 components went into the 'Tonka' but surely you must see that many of the developments in the TSR.2 project went into subsequent aircraft - including the Tornado.

Yes, I've already stated quite clearly that I agree that concepts etc. went through into successive projects - including Tornado.

Getting a bit bored of repeating that no actual TSR2 technology resides in the Tornado airframe though - so pleased you agree on that. scaleplanes seems to have found religion in his quest to prove this clearly incorrect notion, though I'm not quite sure why.

shuttle

6th September 2007, 19:40

Damien,

OK, glad that's settled but looking back I think we might have had some cross wires in the posts. I am sure no-one actually suggested actual components from TSR.2 went into the production 'Tonka' - just a lot of great ideas!!

:D Shuttle

DamienB

6th September 2007, 19:46

.....OH MY GOD!!!

I think we are arguing at cross purposes here.

Technology can refer to a process or an actual invention - so the way jigs are constructed, the way metal an aircraft is made from is produced, the type of transparency used in the cockpit canopies and windscreen, how a fix is computed after an aircraft has travelled hundreds of miles over terrain, specific bits of equipment... but the original assertion here was pretty clear that "technology" was being taken to mean actual physical components - remember the cockpit layout was mentioned for instance, and "There was more than the odd bit went in to Tornado."

I invited the poster of that sentence to name one such bit. They haven't been able to - and neither have you.

I've already agreed that concepts etc. of course flowed from one project to any future ones, including Tornado, but that's a far cry from saying there are TSR2 bits inside a Tornado. I'm really at a loss as to why you're so keen on the idea, and indeed why so many are keen to create or perpetuate myths about an aircraft that was dead and buried 42 years ago.

I've gone through a similarly frustrating exchange of postings with a chap who was convinced the TSR2 originally had Sapphire engines - not so - but he could not be told.

Red 2

6th September 2007, 19:50

Ok, 'time please gentlemen' as they say before we collectively lose the will to live.:D

The TRS2 is an iconic aircraft to many British enthusiasts and I'm pleased to see its reputation also extends beyond our shores. Without it, the UK would undoubtedly not have been well placed to play a prominent and vital role in a number of later projects.

All very interesting but I don't think people will buy the model because of its industrial/technological legacy....they will buy it because it was and remains a very attractive aircraft which in its time must have appeared unbelievably futuristic. I do hope that someone produces a model of it that would do it justice. I would even buy a camo version as a 'what if' model but I think I would really be in a minority on that one.:D :o

shuttle

6th September 2007, 19:50

Damien,

OK - lets leave it there as I think we all understand the points being made.

:) Shuttle

Agent X20

7th September 2007, 08:27

Agent,

It looked like something Sir Gerry of Anderson would have had in one of his shows (why hasn't he ever been knighted?)

:D Shuttle.. crammed full of TRS2 bits was it..? At least he had a supersonic 727... something Boeing never managed...:D :D :D

shuttle

7th September 2007, 08:36

Agent,

Yep, that whole 60's period when some so many things looked possible and were possible (Apollo, Concorde, TSR.2, Harrier and the 747). A golden time and Gerry Anderson certainly tapped into it with his futuristic designs (and Derek Meddings...)!!!

:D Shuttle

Agent X20

7th September 2007, 08:39

......pity British Airways (well BOAC) never bought Fireflash....:(

shuttle

7th September 2007, 09:14

Agent X20,

Fireflash!! They would have had to have bought a load of Elevator cars in case the under-cart went U/S!!!

:D Shuttle

DamienB

7th September 2007, 09:20

......pity British Airways (well BOAC) never bought Fireflash....:(

Just think how much more fun it would have been if they're bought Firestreak instead.

'Fox One on the Lufthansa delaying our final approach"

Agent X20

7th September 2007, 10:16

Agent X20,

Fireflash!! They would have had to have bought a load of Elevator cars in case the under-cart went U/S!!!

:D Shuttle

There was nothing wrong with the undercart.... was that nasty one.. .. could'nt put it down or kerbooom...!!.. classic stuff..

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/AgentX20/rubbish/The_hood.jpg

Fireflashs' made more than the one appearence..:D naw.... it would have looked good in the Corporation colours... wonder if scaleplanes would do one... out of VC10 and TSR2 bits...

sniperUK

7th September 2007, 10:30

http://www.fabgearusa.com/fireflash_model_by_aoshima.html

dilligafocau

7th September 2007, 10:35

http://www.fabgearusa.com/fireflash_model_by_aoshima.html

Lots of nice stuff on that site :)

scaleplanes

7th September 2007, 19:27

wonder if scaleplanes would do one... out of VC10 and TSR2 bits...

I may have a talent for modifying die-casts but come on Agent, a fireflash from a VC-10 and a TSR2 - that’s about as easy as alchemy. Are there any TSR2 bits in a Fireflash????

DamienB

7th September 2007, 19:53

Are there any TSR2 bits in a Fireflash????

Don't start! :LOL:

Red 2

7th September 2007, 20:00

Don't start! :LOL:

Punishment will be swift....;)

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/fighting/fighting0085.gif (http://www.arlingtonhotelgroup.co.uk)

scaleplanes

7th September 2007, 20:17

Punishment will be swift....;)

couldn't resist:D wrist slapped:D :D

CFBC

7th September 2007, 20:34

Guys,

Any more fishing and baiting will be removed!

Ok!! ;) :)

johnnyboy

7th September 2007, 22:28

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/johnnyboy_041/adminwatch.gif

Agent X20

7th September 2007, 22:47

Are there any TSR2 bits in a Fireflash???? Think theres a bit of Airfix / Revell / Monogram in everything that the god Anderson creates...:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: so on the basis that we never had a friggin TSR2 for the first 45 of me modelling years... the answer is most probably no...:D

In fact the Fireflash is about the only airplane prop apart from TB1/2/3/4/5 that didnt have any 'other bits in it'.... seem to remember a lot of B58 Hustler bits being used in some of the earlier stuff.. me submarine is a Bell X5..:D :eek: (Think he used some Buccaneers in one episode of Stingray.. )

AND NO FISHING... really dont want them on the forum..its been bad enough in WHSmiths this week reading the aeroplane and Flypast mags.... must have been a bumper edition of carp world this month as they have all been in there...

scaleplanes

8th September 2007, 07:44

Think theres a bit of Airfix / Revell / Monogram in everything that the god Anderson creates...:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: so on the basis that we never had a friggin TSR2 for the first 45 of me modelling years... the answer is most probably no...:D

In fact the Fireflash is about the only airplane prop apart from TB1/2/3/4/5 that didnt have any 'other bits in it'.... seem to remember a lot of B58 Hustler bits being used in some of the earlier stuff.. me submarine is a Bell X5..:D :eek: (Think he used some Buccaneers in one episode of Stingray.. )

Yes, B-58s, F-104s and Drakkens featured a lot. I’ve been told by friends who are involved with Fanderson (not that I want to admit having friends who are members of this club!) Revell was the main kits used because that’s what the local post office stocked. Apparently, they never told the owner what the kits were for, just kept on clearing his shelves. Just imagine how much stock he must have bought-in, thinking they’d keep coming back.:LOL:

AND NO FISHING... really dont want them on the forum..its been bad enough in WHSmiths this week reading the aeroplane and Flypast mags.... must have been a bumper edition of carp world this month as they have all been in there...

Don't read fishing mags. however, the tittle TOTALLY CARP always makes me smile:)

Red 2

8th September 2007, 07:53

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/johnnyboy_041/adminwatch.gif

Why waste a bullet?

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/fighting/fighting0043.gif (http://www.arlingtonhotelgroup.co.uk)

CFBC

25th November 2007, 15:33

So, just playing catch-up with this thread!

We are in favour of a TSR2 then? -biggrin- Not many have voted....

eismeer

25th November 2007, 15:38

We are in favour of a TSR2 then? -biggrin- Not many have voted....

I voted before and i voted YES-biggrin-

CFBC

25th November 2007, 15:56

Thanks Eismeer,

I feel it is going to be a big sawd who ever manufacturers it as just been trying to find a photograph and stumbled over these that were posted a while ago when the airfix kits were around!

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/public4/avros2.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/crawfie65/090d5fa9.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/crawfie65/05b3659d.jpg

Do we still want one? -blink- -biggrin-

I know I do, but....

Nimrod48

25th November 2007, 16:26

I voted before and i voted YES-biggrin-

I voted Yes... I want one above all else the Airfix kit is in the loft & will brobably stay there until I retire in 6 long years time.

Martin Bull

25th November 2007, 17:36

I certainly want one and I hate jets... ( just like I hate biplanes, remember ? -unsure- )

no4mkit

25th November 2007, 19:20

I want one too, even though like MB, I'm not collecting the kerosene burners (unless they're WWII).

I've been considering the (plastic) 1/144 Cafe Reo TSR2 but metal is preferable!

ZS-VAN

25th November 2007, 20:01

That TSR2 sure looks the business! Wow what a super -cool- plane! You bet I want one! -biggrin-

CFBC

25th November 2007, 21:58

I want one too, even though like MB, I'm not collecting the kerosene burners (unless they're WWII).

I've been considering the (plastic) 1/144 Cafe Reo TSR2 but metal is preferable!

Interesteing that... I would be interested to hear comments from our US and overseas members on the TSR2 please as I thought it would only appeal to the UK more so... How wrong could I be? -huh- -rolleyes-

shuttle

25th November 2007, 22:07

The model above is the Airfix TSR.2 I built a while back and posed with the Corgi Lanc and Lightning. It is an awesome plane and a Corgi version would be very welcome. I think the huge interest in the Airfix model shows that the aircraft has a real following and the few test flights made, the scandal of the cancellation plus the fact that it was so ahead of its time means that it will always be an icon.

-smile Shuttle

Agent X20

25th November 2007, 22:07

Yes, I would like one and I would buy one, if it was an authentic replica of the real thing.. that's no gaping panel lines or seams, ungainly joints, the right shade of white.. the possibility of it looking half as good as ?Shuttles? model is unlikely... properly boxed in styrofoam then its gotta be worth a ton.....

... more chance of a porcine rose (flying) ... :lol:

shuttle

25th November 2007, 22:14

Agent,

If I built on of the latest Revell Lancaster's it would still not looks good, IMHO, as the Corgi version I have on display. I very rarely build kits as I haven't the time - diecasts for me as I get virtually instant gratification once the model is purchased and displayed!!

I am sure a TSR.2 would be great and I am hoping that the Corgi range gets a real 'boost' from the feedback and advice given by forum members who are now a bit more involved after the session with Corgi - look at the fantastic catalogue choices for the first half of next year!

-smile Shuttle

Agent X20

25th November 2007, 22:36

The picture was from CFBC.. but I was fairly sure that he wasnt the builder of said plane.... hence the ??....

Instant gratification is one thing.. ferkin ugly joint lines, gaps and poor fit aint ... and when it comes to modern stuff the pooch is way way down on the realistic barometer... :)

scaleplanes

25th November 2007, 23:41

Yes, I would like one and I would buy one, if it was an authentic replica of the real thing.. that's no gaping panel lines or seams, ungainly joints, the right shade of white.

Will ink panel lines be OK then?-laugh-

CFBC

26th November 2007, 06:49

Will ink panel lines be OK then?-laugh-

NO! -mad- -laugh- -laugh-

CFBC

26th November 2007, 06:50

The picture was from CFBC.. but I was fairly sure that he wasnt the builder of said plane.... hence the ??....

Oh no! Not me, I could not produce anything as nice as that in kit form... -blink-

Read my post, I found them earlier in the airfix TSR2 thread posted a few months ago... -biggrin-

p-51d

26th November 2007, 08:58

Would'nt this be a mileage out of mould dilemma for Corgi??
To market a aircraft that only flew in prototype form unless MEGA expensive would be madness, how many versions could they do?.

Agent X20

26th November 2007, 09:01

Exactly, so it aint gonna happen...

Martin Bull

26th November 2007, 09:02

Good points from P-51D and the answers are : -

1) Yes, it would !
2) Only 2 or 3 at the most....

OTOH, it's a model which collectors seem to be very interested in ( even me ! -blink- ) of an aircraft which still stirs up storms of controversy every time its mentioned in a magazine or book.

To produce it would be a truly courageous decision by a mainstream manufacturer - it will be very interesting to see if this one 'gets off the ground'.......

Dutchie

26th November 2007, 09:09

Saw a nice book in luchtvaarthobbyshop lhshop.nl-smile

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff88/dutchie_393/73583_0.jpg

Agent X20

26th November 2007, 09:23

To produce it would be a truly courageous decision by a mainstream manufacturer - it will be very interesting to see if this one 'gets off the ground'.......

To produce it in 1/72 would be a truly courageous decision by a mainstream manufacturer.. :)

If anything happens ....is it not more likely that you will see this in 1/144..?

Comes back again to this and Valiant... eventually when all other subjects are done then the viability of either of these then becomes a distinct probability...

DamienB

26th November 2007, 09:48

Saw a nice book in luchtvaarthobbyshop lhshop.nl-smile

It isn't a nice book.

Very brief history is based entirely on the Wings of Fame article and a few howlers appear later in the book, such as the old long-range interceptor version to carry AAMs. The bomb bay of the Cosford example apparently has fuel bladders in it - not cooling blankets for the test equipment then...?

Most of the book is walkaround photos, all in colour at least but nothing you couldn't get yourself with a visit to the museums in question. No cockpit photos for instance, and some shots are blurred and/or overexposed - certainly not suitable for publication!

There's an article supposedly on building the Airfix kit which is just an extended advert for the CMK resin bits (very little info on actually building the kit!).

Then there's the colour profiles, almost all of which have a serious printing error - the serials have been printed in some sort of symbol font, so are totally illegible. List of profiles - XR219/220's standard schemes, XR224 'Nightbird' in raspberry ripple, XS977 in a variation of raspberry ripple, XS954 in all-black 16 Sqn 'Saint' scheme, XS664 in wraparound camo, XS986 in overall grey, XS980 in red flag sand/brown wraparound camo, and on the back cover XR227 in 12 Sqn anniversary scheme of white with green stripes and fox head on top of wing (the only really imaginative one I think).

Certainly not worth the money.

johnnyboy

26th November 2007, 14:38

After reading this thread all the way though again today (and I have to say what great thread this been I also hope it continues) I have come to conclusion that yes I would buy one and maybe....
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/johnnyboy_041/ko.jpg
but then again
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/johnnyboy_041/ghtgf.jpg

The Defiant Man

26th November 2007, 15:48

They wouldn't sell many "what if" schemes......

Just look how popular the non-operational Halifax F13th museum scheme was!-dry-

Martin Bull

26th November 2007, 16:25

Wouldn't 617 Squadron have had TSR-2 ? That might make an interesting display.....-cool-

Craig

26th November 2007, 18:10

Comes back to what I've said before. A white XR219 I'd certainly have. As for "what if" shemes though I have no interest whatsoever. I suspect only the die hards would think any different......-unsure-

johnnyboy

26th November 2007, 19:27

Wouldn't 617 Squadron have had TSR-2 ? That might make an interesting display.....-cool-

How about this one then MB
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/johnnyboy_041/gtgtg.jpg

eismeer

26th November 2007, 19:35

That green/grey 617Sqd TSR2 would look good next to the Bucc/Lightning/Jag etc-cool-

Oh, and the Phantom when we get one-biggrin-

Red 2

26th November 2007, 19:56

That green/grey 617Sqd TSR2 would look good next to the Bucc/Lightning/Jag etc-cool-

Oh, and the Phantom when we get one-biggrin-

My thoughts too....think I would be up for one and a prototype.

Nimrod48

28th November 2007, 10:26

Put me down for the Duxford prototype & two what if schemes ETPS & 617 sqdn oh & just cos its down the road a Cosford jobbie too-smile

johnnyboy

21st February 2008, 23:12

Sorry to re hash this thread but thought some of you might like to see this
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/951799/the_raf_tsr_2/

kevjb64

21st February 2008, 23:35

Brought a bit of a lump into the old throat .:o

eismeer

21st February 2008, 23:38

Nice find jb:cool:

What might have been hey.

Martin Bull

22nd February 2008, 07:49

Thanks jb, I'd never seen that. Don't care what anyone says, it's a very attractive aircraft.....:cool

CFBC

22nd February 2008, 08:07

Have to say an excellent find indeed JB and thanks for linking it... Is it me or was the TSR2 very unstable on landing... :unsure:

Martin Bull

22nd February 2008, 08:09

....I must stress that this was a pre-pro, CFBC....! :LOL:

CFBC

22nd February 2008, 08:11

....I must stress that this was a pre-pro, CFBC....! :LOL:

I did think that as the u/c was a bit wobbly... :D

kevjb64

22nd February 2008, 09:14

I did think that as the u/c was a bit wobbly... :D

Apparently the following week BAC engineers invented Blu-Tac to keep the u/c in place properly !! :rolleyes: :D

buzzard

22nd February 2008, 10:08

Wow, not a beauty, but a real hotrod it seems to me :eek:
Must have had an excessively high wing loading, mustn't it?
Looks the like on the approach anyway, quite unstable.

Those might have beens would make up a nice airforce on their own:
North American B-70 - Strategic Bomber
BAC TSR2 - Tactical Strike/Recce
Avro Arrow - Interceptor
Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer - Air Superiority Element

Paul F

22nd February 2008, 13:21

Wow, not a beauty, but a real hotrod it seems to me :eek:
Must have had an excessively high wing loading, mustn't it?
Looks the like on the approach anyway, quite unstable.

Yes, wing loading was high, to help it punch it's way through wind gusts at low level... what a beast....as well as wondering "What if..?" about the TSR2, you can't help but wonder, had it gone on to live up to the potential it showed, what might have become of the UK's aviation industry as a result - would it have remained a more potent player in military aviation design and build for longer, rather than withering away, and having to work on collabarative projects? I know, I know, we produced the Harrier and Hawk after TSR2, and even had a major part in Tornado and Eurofighter Typhoon projects...but would a new indigenous fighter been developed to replace the EE Lightning for example?

Deep down I guess the small home market, plus limited overseas sales opportunities apart from Australia, Canada etc would probably have had the same end result, as I doubt that even a fully fledged TSR2 would have broken the US domination of export markets.

Sigh - If only...... :(

The Defiant Man

22nd February 2008, 15:53

Excellent video......bet those u/c legs wouldn't have had a very long service life!

DamienB

22nd February 2008, 17:04

Test pilots said it was very stable in the approach configuration, not sure where you guys are getting the idea it wasn't.

Undercarriage problems were being worked on - the 2nd airframe had an additional strut to take out some of the side loads, never tested for real of course. One landing was cocked up somewhat and an excessive sink rate led to a big bounce, but the undercarriage survived. It did later collapse while the airframe was being used for target practice so may have been damaged during that heavy landing.

Spectrum

23rd February 2008, 21:45

Excellent find johnnyboy.

The music to the video makes it very moving. Such a shame :(

sniperUK

12th March 2008, 15:08

Saw the magazine today with the Hounds TSR.2 pre-pro pic in it,looks very good even though it was a small photo. I will be getting one ,who else?

shuttle

12th March 2008, 15:55

I would buy at least one.

:D Shuttle

Agent X20

12th March 2008, 16:30

Duty bound to (trench panel lines and VC10 crew escape module sectioning however would turn this into a no no..).. if nothing else make a good paperweight for the office..:D

johnnyboy

12th March 2008, 16:36

Not for me I am afraid not got the space for it, anyway as it only made a few flights before being scraped I cant justifying one in my collection I only want aircraft that served in RAF service. My memory of this iconic aircraft was about 25 years ago while on a flight out of Rochford/Southend and seeing a hulk of one on the Shoeburyness range:mad:

The Defiant Man

12th March 2008, 18:13

If the problems at head kennel are as bad as is rumoured on the other threads, I'd be very surprised if this huge lump of metal will get done......

strix1998

12th March 2008, 19:23

If the problems at head kennel are as bad as is rumoured on the other threads, I'd be very surprised if this huge lump of metal will get done......

on the pending Airfix 1/48 kit............................

blue steel

12th March 2008, 19:55

Well, if Corgi did it I would have to purchase the white prototype but that would probably be it as any other schemes, as far as I know anyway, would be hypothetical although I'd be tempted by a camo job with AS30 missiles, bombs and/or rocket pods. I'd have thought that if they are considering more new tooling (which I very much doubt at the moment) they would have wanted to regain some ground with a solid type for both UK and International appeal such as a Douglas Boston/Havoc or even a Mirage III. Haven't mentioned a Beaufighter as I think I saw on this site that Gemini had plans for it. While it is undoubtedly a very brave and imaginative subject you can't help thinking that the likes of Hobby Master and Gemini will have wry smiles on their faces as they consider much better commercial propositions. While I wholeheartedly applaud Corgi for some of the planes they have released (and which we should all be VERY thankful for) it is this sort of planning which has possibly not helped their current situation. If they had bought out Wildcats, Hellcats and possibly an Avenger 'back in the day' rather than a HE111 or a Wellington perhaps they would be better off commercially now. Just a thought

shuttle

12th March 2008, 20:16

I disagree - I think the TSR.2 is a great choice by Corgi. If it was such a poor subject then Airfix wouldn't now be making a 1/48 scale version. you need some 'show stopper' models in your range and I think this is one of them.

:) Shuttle

blue steel

12th March 2008, 21:25

Depends what way you interpret 'Great Choice'. I loved the plane and was gutted that we sold out to the Americans over the F111 fiasco. I'm not old enough (just!) to remember all the kerfuffle but I was bought the 1976 RAF Yearbook/magazine and this had a superb article called 'Wings clipped and cancelled' which included a detailed TSR2 drawing and 'what might have been'. Fell in love with it then and wanted it put into production for the RAF immediately!!!! Totally agree with the comment about 'showstoppers' but in their own way, the Swordfish, Catalina, Halifax and JU52 amongst others should be considered as this. If a company is thriving then a 'left-field' subject for the collectors AND for their own profile is great. However, as things stand this would seem to be too big a gamble. I don't know all the maths but my guess is that they would need to sell quite a few to recoup the costs and I cannot see the livery variations required to do this. I can't really comment on the 1/48 and plastic kit issue as diecast is about ready made models offered in different liveries over, potentially, a number of years. But if they do it I'll buy 2, maybe 3:)

smartd

13th March 2008, 04:29

It has about as much chance as we do in seeing the Avro Arrow made.
We can get the Arrow by a few toy diecast companies but no serious effort.

strix1998

13th March 2008, 08:18

It has about as much chance as we do in seeing the Avro Arrow made.
We can get the Arrow by a few toy diecast companies but no serious effort.

although the Arrow is certainly another iconic aircraft ..............and I would have one.....................

Nimrod48

13th March 2008, 10:14

Saw the magazine today with the Hounds TSR.2 pre-pro pic in it,looks very good even though it was a small photo. I will be getting one ,who else?

I would have Duxford & Cosford versions plus "what if" schemes if they included a 617 Squadron & a Raspberry Ripple scheme :)

eismeer

13th March 2008, 13:23

I would have Duxford & Cosford versions plus "what if" schemes if they included a 617 Squadron & a Raspberry Ripple scheme :)

Plus a Cammo one so there's 5 serious contenders to be done:cool: :D

Agent Carr

13th March 2008, 13:28

I would have Duxford & Cosford versions plus "what if" schemes if they included a 617 Squadron & a Raspberry Ripple scheme :)

I think it would be madness for Corgi to get into what if schemes. If they are I will take a White Russian Hurricane.

eismeer

13th March 2008, 13:46

I think it would be madness for Corgi to get into what if schemes. If they are I will take a White Russian Hurricane.

If Corgi are to do a TSR2 at all, which is starting to look highly likely, then bank on the "what if" schemes to help make it worthwhile:)

I'm sure there are a lot of collectors out there who would be happy to buy a TSR2 in their favourite Sqd/scheme but at what price:unsure:

Would have to be Corgi's best piece of marketing to date to produce the right quantities/schemes/quality to make it a success;)

Agent Carr

13th March 2008, 14:53

If Corgi are to do a TSR2 at all, which is starting to look highly likely, then bank on the "what if" schemes to help make it worthwhile:)

I'm sure there are a lot of collectors out there who would be happy to buy a TSR2 in their favourite Sqd/scheme but at what price:unsure:

Would have to be Corgi's best piece of marketing to date to produce the right quantities/schemes/quality to make it a success;)

Personally to be honest Corgis credibility goes out the window goes out the window if they go down the what if schemes. So many other models cant/wont be done without documentation yet they will happily knock out aircraft that never existed.

kevjb64

13th March 2008, 15:02

Personally to be Corgis credibility goes out the window goes out the window if they go down the what if schemes. So many other models cant/wont be done without documentation yet they will happily knock out aircraft that never existed.

Normally would 100% agree with you but with this particular aircraft can we be a bit more lenient ?? There are several decal sheets that have what ifs for this and prints to match . Particularly nice are the Raspberry Ripple one and the 617 Sqdn , great print of that one screaming across a Scottish Loch . Because of the circumstances / emotions surrounding the TSR2 could it be got away with just this once ?? :)

I'm not sure if this would / should work but must admit may buy a couple of what ifs if they were available .:o

eismeer

13th March 2008, 15:11

Normally would 100% agree with you but with this particular aircraft can we be a bit more lenient ?? There are several decal sheets that have what ifs for this and prints to match . Particularly nice are the Raspberry Ripple one and the 617 Sqdn , great print of that one screaming across a Scottish Loch . Because of the circumstances / emotions surrounding the TSR2 could it be got away with just this once ?? :)

I'm not sure if this would / should work but must admit may buy a couple of what ifs if they were available .:o

I for one could overlook this and would be preparred to buy a "what if" scheme if the stated requirements were right:cool:

CFBC

12th November 2008, 00:10

Next I want a TSR2 in 2009... If CW can produce the SR-71 <cough>, why not Corgi and the TSR2! ;) :cool

Hmm, maybe HM produce one? ;) :cool

DCRanger

12th November 2008, 00:13

I'm not a jet man but I would have one from Corgi or HM if it was up to scratch. Roughly about the same size as the SR71?

Craig

12th November 2008, 00:14

Nest I want a TSR2 in 2009... If CW can produce the SR-71 <cough>, why not Corgi and the TSR2! ;) :cool

Hmm, maybe HM produce one? ;) :cool
Would love one, but think the TSR-2 is extremely cool, but even harder to justify than the SR-71. The SR-71 is low on schemes, but at least you can do different serials, can't even do that with TSR-2! XR219, 220, and 222 and that's about it! :eek:

strix1998

12th November 2008, 07:55

Would love one, but think the TSR-2 is extremely cool, but even harder to justify than the SR-71. The SR-71 is low on schemes, but at least you can do different serials, can't even do that with TSR-2! XR219, 220, and 222 and that's about it! :eek:

Check out the link on Snipers Post No 137 on this thread. Given that she would still be in service I would certainly go for a couple of "what-ifs".................

Nimrod48

12th November 2008, 09:00

As long as its in 1:72 scale I would buy a Duxford & Cosford version along with a Raspberry Ripple & 617 sqn what ifs.

p-51d

12th November 2008, 09:29

Sorry guys but if one appeared i'd be amazed , it never saw service and should remain unmade without imaginary schemes , getting a kit one is miraculous enough, ask for a Sea Vixen , at least there's some real schemes to do.

The Defiant Man

12th November 2008, 09:40

Max Reheat

12th November 2008, 09:46

I'm not a jet man but I would have one from Corgi or HM if it was up to scratch. Roughly about the same size as the SR71?

3 inches shorter and narrower in 1:72 DCR, and a tiny wing area, so much more viable...:D :D

Craig

12th November 2008, 13:27

Check out the link on Snipers Post No 137 on this thread. Given that she would still be in service I would certainly go for a couple of "what-ifs".................

A fair comment, "what ifs" are possible as padding, but I fear they'd be dump fodder. I'd have a white one for sure, and in fact probably pre-order one as well, but any "what ifs" I wouldn't even consider. Just not my scene, and I suspect many would see it the same way. Defeatist, yep you could call it that I suppose, but personally again from a cold, hard economic point of view, this looks to me suicidal. I'd love one, honestly, but I still don't think it's viable I'm afraid... :unsure: :)

Greycap Leader

14th November 2008, 13:03

Like one? Yes please.....

Think it will be a good move for the manufacturer? No.

It will be a big beastie that does not have enough schemes......"what ifs" will not be popular enough to justify the mould......

If a TSR2 is not a good move for a manufacture then the SR71 is certainly not! and the near £100 price tag does not help neither.

How many schemes did it have?? er, I think it was just black! there is not even any what ifs!!

You can only buy one black one and considering Aviation sales are poor in the US anyway I feel this is not going to be such a massive hit.

The Defiant Man

14th November 2008, 16:14

blue steel

14th November 2008, 17:01

Mmmmm......don't think this would be a sensible decision at the moment. The SR.71 had a long service life and will appeal to many US as well as some UK collectors so has distinct advantages. I would love one white TSR2 and wouldn't say I'd never buy 1 or 2 'what if?' schemes but from a manufacturers point of view I'm just not sure. I know that it is a real possibility due to the success of the 'Airfix' kit. I guess most would buy at least one TSR2 though

Agent X20

14th November 2008, 17:06

. what....... even if it was the wrong shade of white..?

blue steel

14th November 2008, 17:14

Not a major problem for me......I'm colour blind :)

The Defiant Man

14th November 2008, 17:31

. what....... even if it was the wrong shade of white..?

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

col

14th November 2008, 17:31

.... one black one and considering Aviation sales are poor in the US anyway I feel this is not going to be such a massive hit.

Well, there were silver versions but think these were the proposed interceptor variants, so probably slightly different features.

Battlestar

23rd November 2008, 16:45

G'Day All

I'm a new member to the forum, but I couldn't pass this up.

CORGI! I WANT A TSR2 AND I WANT ONE NOW!!!!!!!!!
Who's with me, we have got the Lightning and the Harrier and now we want the TSR2!!

SO DO I. But if Corgi makes it, it better be good. I've not been have happy with Corgi Kits over the last year, too many mistakes for me (and the cost here in Australia for Corgi is very high. Now if Hobbymaster or Century Wing do it...well, I'll go broke buying it, so will many others here in Australia.

TSR-2 was such a great aircraft!

Grim Reaper

23rd November 2008, 16:48

A warm welcome Battlestar hope you enjoy our little madhouse

Battlestar

24th November 2008, 12:55

G'Day

A warm welcome Battlestar hope you enjoy our little madhouse

Thanks Grim Reaper!

jetfan

24th November 2008, 18:06

Agent X20

24th November 2008, 18:10

... Javelin .. Swift.... and Seahawk.. and Sea Vixen.... and Folland Gnat... and......:D :D :D

Craig

24th November 2008, 23:16

If Corgi did do the TSR-2, which never saw operational service, then maybe it could be the start of a whole new series of experimental aircraft.

I'd love to see the following:-

Avro 707
B.P.-111
B.P.-120
Bristol 188
Fairey FD-1
Fairey FD-2
E.E. P-1B
H.P.-88 (Blackburn YB-2)
Saunders Roe SR-53
Short SB-5
Supermarine 508
Supermarine 510

However, the Javelin and Swift F.R.5 need to be done before anything else followed by the Jet Provost (which Corgi planned at one time)
Several on that list I'd love to own, but I'd say there is a HUGE list of more commercially viable post war RAF stuff to do first. The WW2 stuff is approaching saturation point, but there's a lot that can still be done post war

Nimrod48

24th November 2008, 23:42

... Javelin .. Swift.... and Seahawk.. and Sea Vixen.... and Folland Gnat... and......:D :D :D

I do hope a Javelin appears soon ...a Binbrook one would be nice to compliment the Lightning :)

The Defiant Man

24th November 2008, 23:45

I do hope a Javelin appears soon ...a Binbrook one would be nice to compliment the Lightning :)

Would like to see all those mentioned by Agent a few posts back......but I think you have to be realistic in the current economic climate.....it will be a while, if at all.....:(

planejunky

25th November 2008, 00:49

If a TSR2 is not a good move for a manufacture then the SR71 is certainly not! and the near £100 price tag does not help neither.

How many schemes did it have?? er, I think it was just black! there is not even any what ifs!!

You can only buy one black one and considering Aviation sales are poor in the US anyway I feel this is not going to be such a massive hit.

I couldn't disagree more. The SR-71 is still officially the fastest jet aircraft ever flown, and a major aeronautical icon. TSR.2 barely made it into the air let alone go onto a successful service career! A diecast SR is now a reality, and while I agree it's pricey, it's no more than the Corgi big bombers that collectors seem to have cabinets full of. Although black, there are a number of marking variations from the early jets, through Vietnam into the 1980's. TSR.2 you'll have one white XR219, then you're into fantasy land "what if" schemes. I think the majority of collectors prefer real schemes.

As I've said before it'll be a brave company that releases a TSR.2, personally I think it would be business suicide especially in the current economic downturn. However that said, if they do ever release it, good luck to'em! :)

Greycap Leader

26th November 2008, 18:13

Battlestar

27th November 2008, 15:21

G'Day All

Battlestar - finally someone is talking sense! It will not just be the UK market that this iconic aircraft appeals to.
PJ - The TSR2 is Britain at its best! cut off before its full potential was realised by the powers that be.
Even shark boy has not finalised the price for the SR71. If things get better then it will be cheaper, if not then peeps over here could end up paying the full £134.99 retail!!
You say that it is roughly the same price as the Corgi big bombers, I have NEVER paid retail for a B17, B24, Lanc etc..... So we will have to wait and see.
The question is would you buy more than one SR71 just because it has a different serial number? but would you buy all three TSR2's??
No doubt it will be a great model I do like Century Wings, it is just the price that bothers me.

I'm here to tell you all that if the TSR-2 is done, it wouldn't matter how many are made, they would all be gone in weeks. Here in Australia there are people drooling over a 1/48 scale version of TSR-2 that they heard Airfix is doing, but they can't get more info.Also, as I mentioned in a previous post, the mistakes that Corgi have made of late...I hope they don't do it. I do know that there is someone in Hobbymaster that loves the TSR-2. I'm hoping they might do it sometime next year!

I WANT MY TSR-2 NOW!

On the SR-71, well, here in Aust, we'll be paying over $200.00AUST for it. Yet Corgi is as costly, and for certain kits impossible to get (On average a Corgi kit is at least $100.00 Aust, and over $200.00 for the Lanc! And every Aussie wants Corgi to re-release Lanc G for George...NOW). In the US the price listed for the Blackbird is $140.00US in some stores.

As for buying more than one SR-71, If the B model, the drone carrier, or the A-12 came out by CW, I'd have to consider it.

blue steel

27th November 2008, 16:06

Would be a massive commitment from any manufacturer to make a die-cast TSR2 at an 'acceptable' price. Non-service plane, one definitive scheme.... and that's yer lot. If we're talking SR71 price then I'd buy ONE TSR2 but how many are going to buy 3,4 or whatever, tricky enough with 'world-wide' planes let alone totally fictitious schemes. If you were in business I can't see this as being a realistic or viable proposition. If a manufacturer KNOWS this is going to turn a profit with whatever figures they're using then great but I think it will be more of a status symbol than a guaranteed profit earner. Just my personal thoughts and I really hope I'm proved wrong if it ever materialises :)

planejunky

27th November 2008, 17:33

Battlestar - finally someone is talking sense! It will not just be the UK market that this iconic aircraft appeals to.

PJ - The TSR2 is Britain at its best! cut off before its full potential was realised by the powers that be.

Even shark boy has not finalised the price for the SR71. If things get better then it will be cheaper, if not then peeps over here could end up paying the full £134.99 retail!!

You say that it is roughly the same price as the Corgi big bombers, I have NEVER paid retail for a B17, B24, Lanc etc..... So we will have to wait and see.

The question is would you buy more than one SR71 just because it has a different serial number? but would you buy all three TSR2's??

No doubt it will be a great model I do like Century Wings, it is just the price that bothers me.

While I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm afraid I just see a dead aeroplane project, after all only one of them ever flew. The Duxford example has never had clear air under it's tires (except if been hoisted by crane).

But this argument has been raging as long as the diecast hobby itself, if they do make one there will be some happy collectors which I guess is all that matters :) . Personally I think you'll be waiting a very long time, especially in the current climate.

I'm sure the SR-71 will probably do the same as the bombers, and fall in price when they finally realise that peeps will not pay that sort of money, I hope so anyway. :)

Agent X20

27th November 2008, 17:40

The model.. yep it would do well if enough if the manufacturer had a reasonable distribution outlet, but I dont think any of them have...

If it wasnt for the forums (and the American Dealers) one wouldnt have a clue what was coming out..:rolleyes:

Battlestar

1st December 2008, 20:53

G'Day All

While I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm afraid I just see a dead aeroplane project, after all only one of them ever flew. The Duxford example has never had clear air under it's tires (except if been hoisted by crane).

Sorry Planejunky, I disagree.

It might have had a limited life, but TSR-2 change the aviation world. If a die cast company (CW, HM) did this aircraft as a limited edition, it would be sold out worldwide within the month, ok week, who am I kidding!

In the current climate companies look for that one model that will reap the highest profit, and still have people asking for more. The best example I know of is CW's A-6E Intruder, then their A-7E Corsair II, then the F-8 Crusader, these kits, especially the last two, are now impossible to get, yet CW took a risk in bringing new models out into the market, and are happy with the outcome. The buzz for the SR-71, even without one unit being sold, is mostly positive (bar the price).

Sometimes dead aircraft make the best kits!:)

timbo

1st December 2008, 21:59

G'Day All

Sorry Planejunky, I disagree.

It might have had a limited life, but TSR-2 change the aviation world. If a die cast company (CW, HM) did this aircraft as a limited edition, it would be sold out worldwide within the month, ok week, who am I kidding!

In the current climate companies look for that one model that will reap the highest profit, and still have people asking for more. The best example I know of is CW's A-6E Intruder, then their A-7E Corsair II, then the F-8 Crusader, these kits, especially the last two, are now impossible to get, yet CW took a risk in bringing new models out into the market, and are happy with the outcome. The buzz for the SR-71, even without one unit being sold, is mostly positive (bar the price).

Sometimes dead aircraft make the best kits!:)

Sorry can't agree with you here - your comparing apples to oranges. All the CW planes you mentioned had long and distinguished squadron service histories behind them. The TSR-2 does not fit this bill in the slightest.

Having one example with a handfull of flights and the rest never even leaving the ground will IMHO not produce a model that will have any legs. The first one might sell well but I just don't think people will be interested in buying a "might have been" (unless your a serious nutter - which includes most people there). It will be a mighty brave company that will produce this int eh current strapped wallet environment

I seem to remembe that HM backed off the P-61 because it was perceved that there was a lack of variation in what they could produce with that

Greycap Leader

3rd December 2008, 17:50

shuttle

3rd December 2008, 18:35

My only comment is look at the interest the two Airfix kits are generating - the plane is an icon IMHO.

:D Shuttle

blue steel

3rd December 2008, 19:20

My only comment is look at the interest the two Airfix kits are generating - the plane is an icon IMHO.

:D Shuttle

Agreed....but how much does the 1/72 kit cost? I've seen the 1/48 at around £24

sniperUK

3rd December 2008, 22:31

Agreed....but how much does the 1/72 kit cost? I've seen the 1/48 at around £24

You may pick one up on the bay,I sold one for £70:D Airfix completly sold out all 20,000 of them.The 1/48th has not hit the shops yet.

blue steel

3rd December 2008, 23:17

You may pick one up on the bay,I sold one for £70:D Airfix completly sold out all 20,000 of them.The 1/48th has not hit the shops yet.

Kin hell! That's mighty impressive. Ta for info. :)

Dutchie

2nd January 2009, 18:46

Read Inthe Flying Tigers News Letter That Corgi Comes Out With The Tsr-2:)

CFBC

2nd January 2009, 19:00

Yes Dutchie, part of the second half line-up for 2009... ;) :cool

Suprised that he never named the rest of the line-up this early.. :D

Still, early days though! Was expected to be honest... ;) :)

sniperUK

2nd January 2009, 19:29

Yes Dutchie, part of the second half line-up for 2009... ;) :cool

Suprised that he never named the rest of the line-up this early.. :D

Still, early days though! Was expected to be honest... ;) :)

I wonder what else will be in the lineup:rolleyes: :LOL: :LOL:

Dutchie

2nd January 2009, 19:33

Yes, I'm curious too:D :)

sniperUK

2nd January 2009, 19:34

Yes, I'm curious too:D :)

I'm not;)

Arno 01

2nd January 2009, 19:43

Be nice in White:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: Good luck with it, not quite a SR71, and I think that is risky:confused: How many TSR2's do you think we will get, 1000??

CFBC

2nd January 2009, 19:50

I'm not;)

Prey tell Sniper, please... Go on I dare you! :LOL: :LOL:

Be nice in White:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: Good luck with it, not quite a SR71, and I think that is risky:confused: How many TSR2's do you think we will get, 1000??

:confused: Erm, Am I missing anything here, but they are all white! :LOL: :LOL: (joke)

Not sure of quantity to be produced, but I do know of a few suggestions Corgi are bounding around at present regarding quantities and how many issues which will make it very interesting indeed... ;)

It's no SR-71 I know, but does have a following and also if CW are producing 3000 of the fiest Blackbird, then the quantity that Corgi are looking at should be fine.

Arno 01

2nd January 2009, 19:54

Prey tell Sniper, please... Go on I dare you! :LOL: :LOL:

:confused: Erm, Am I missing anything here, but they are all white! :LOL: :LOL: (joke)

Not sure of quantity to be produced, but I do know of a few suggestions Corgi are bounding around at present regarding quantities and how many issues which will make it very interesting indeed... ;)

It's no SR-71 I know, but does have a following and also if CW are producing 3000 of the fiest Blackbird, then the quantity that Corgi are looking at should be fine.

Let me guess, they are making just enough for everybody who sent their tokens in and got jack all.........(joke):LOL:

CFBC

2nd January 2009, 19:59

Let me guess, they are making just enough for everybody who sent their tokens in and got jack all.........(joke):LOL:

Let me guess, they are making just enough for everybody who sent their tokens in and got jack all.........(joke):LOL:

I wish... :rolleyes:

Now that's still on the agenda to talk to them about, but that's for another thread. :D

Nimrod48

2nd January 2009, 20:05

Read Inthe Flying Tigers News Letter That Corgi Comes Out With The Tsr-2:)

As far as diecast model aircraft go this news is the best I will recieve in 2009......unless someone comes up with a Javelin &/or a Sea Vixen. :)

Arno 01

2nd January 2009, 20:16

As far as diecast model aircraft go this news is the best I will recieve in 2009......unless someone comes up with a Javelin &/or a Sea Vixen. :)

Sea Vixen mmmm now your talking, would swop the TSR2 for a Sea Vixen anyday, would be nice to have:D

Agent X20

2nd January 2009, 21:41

Not sure of quantity to be produced, but I do know of a few suggestions Corgi are bounding around at present regarding quantities and how many issues which will make it very interesting indeed... ;)

It should be non limited... as per the other iconic stuff..... surprised they aint come up with a pre-order 'direct' price.... £49.95...:)

Drew Peacock

2nd January 2009, 21:51

WOW,great news!!Especially since im crap at building kits.I ll still have that 1/48 from Airfix though.

spinnaker987

2nd January 2009, 22:18

Sea Vixen mmmm now your talking, would swop the TSR2 for a Sea Vixen anyday, would be nice to have:D

I agree totally. I know some of you have been longing for a TSR2 for a long time, but for me, I'd rather see some of the aircraft that actually made it to operations released first. Javellin, Sea Vixen, Venom, perhaps even a Scimitar, would all come higher on my list than the TSR@.

Aeolus

2nd January 2009, 22:24

Great news, but somehow I wish that someone else than Corgi tackles the subject. I am fed up with their arrogance and blindness to changing market trends, maybe TSR.2 or Bf-110 will change that, but again somehow I doubt that...:unsure:

johnnyboy

2nd January 2009, 23:18

I agree totally. I know some of you have been longing for a TSR2 for a long time, but for me, I'd rather see some of the aircraft that actually made it to operations released first. Javellin, Sea Vixen, Venom, perhaps even a Scimitar, would all come higher on my list than the TSR@.

I also agree with you far better to invest in a model that will sell world wide or even better put the money into sorting out its quality control ( 4 New models this Xmas and every one f"*^ked up to some decree) With the financial problems we all will be facing this coming year only the hound would be thinking of bringing out a TSR2 Oh well it would be something of cliché Corgi going out of business making this white elephant which like the failure of prototype lead to the demise of our aircraft industry

p-51d

2nd January 2009, 23:47

Is Corgi joint technology upto releasing a white aircraft ??, love the thought of a trench behind the cockpit. This release is baffling but i'll get the floatplane nightfighter operated by air Zanzibar eventually.

blue steel

3rd January 2009, 00:25

Craig

3rd January 2009, 00:29

Well, it's a rather strange choice in some ways but I guess it could be a huge success :unsure: Either way, it will probably raise more questions than answers. If they can justify going ahead with this then it might be hard for them to argue against doing plenty of other types such as those already mentioned.....plus a Valiant

But if they pull it off....

There's only one mark, so no need for trenches all over the place, and if you're talking "special" it's well up there. Don't knock it until we've seen it...

blue steel

3rd January 2009, 00:44

But if they pull it off....

There's only one mark, so no need for trenches all over the place, and if you're talking "special" it's well up there. Don't knock it until we've seen it...

Not knocking it at all Craig :confused:.....in fact I very much welcome it. It may well sell like hot cakes and I genuinely hope it does for everyones sake. I just think it's a very brave decision so good luck to them.

Craig

3rd January 2009, 00:48

Not knocking it at all Craig :confused:.....in fact I very much welcome it. It may well sell like hot cakes and I genuinely hope it does for everyones sake. I just think it's a very brave decision so good luck to them.

Sorry Blue Steel, not suggesting you were knocking it, just your comment seemed the most pertinent/recent! Just seems easy to criticise a model we have seen nothing of, especially when it has the potential to be a real benchmark. No offence intended :)

blue steel

3rd January 2009, 01:52

Sorry Blue Steel, not suggesting you were knocking it, just your comment seemed the most pertinent/recent! Just seems easy to criticise a model we have seen nothing of, especially when it has the potential to be a real benchmark. No offence intended :)

No problem Craig but thanks for the reply ;) TSR2 is one of my all time faves so I'm obviously delighted with the news :D I dare say the model will be very impressive so I have no major problem there, was thinking more about the numbers game :)

ACpilot

3rd January 2009, 02:18

TSR2 sounds great!

But we need an Avro Arrow to go with it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39hhkVRPi4g&feature=related

Dan
:cool

Garethster

3rd January 2009, 06:47

What scale were you thinking of this die cast Sandra Bullock in , perhaps a new line for Corgi ? :rolleyes: :D

...has to be 1/1 silly, and I suspect that Corgi will have to add inflatable to it's product line......;)

Garethster

3rd January 2009, 06:56

TSR2 sounds great!

But we need an Avro Arrow to go with it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39hhkVRPi4g&feature=related

Dan
:cool

Ahhh yes ACPilot, now that was an aircraft ahead of its time. I'll take mine in the standard white livery :). Maybe Corgi can start a new product line named Government Cockup Aviation Archive ;)

Drew Peacock

3rd January 2009, 09:56

Ahhh yes ACPilot, now that was an aircraft ahead of its time. I'll take mine in the standard white livery :). Maybe Corgi can start a new product line named Government Cockup Aviation Archive ;)

Being a huge fan of the "Secret Projects"series of books and someone whos generally always found "What might have been" a damn sight more intoxicating than what is anyway i ve long thought a 1957 white paper range from Corgi cataloguing unproduced prototypes would be a winner.

KO-B

3rd January 2009, 11:49

A brave choice, and I wonder if they've chosen the best time to do this. Nevertheless, a model that perhaps needed to be made at some point.

However, Corgi really need to get this right. I've a feeling that some collectors will be watching them like hawks...:LOL:

Wonder if it'll be based on the Airfix kit. Was that a good model?:unsure:

KO-B

raddger

3rd January 2009, 12:20

Love the idea of this and will no doubt buy one for the all reasons previously mentioned.

Does blow the old 'six liveries to be viable' argument out of the water....

I sincerely hope it's a huge success.

Kubikali

3rd January 2009, 12:26

This one is not for me at all... Don't think I ever heard of this plane before this thread! :o

sniperUK

3rd January 2009, 12:51

scott

3rd January 2009, 13:03

If i get a job i will have one :D

tsr2

3rd January 2009, 13:31

Fantastic news. I'll take this one first....

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh423/tso464/IMG_0372.jpg

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh423/tso464/IMG_0742.jpg

Greycap Leader

3rd January 2009, 15:52

HOORAY!!!

This has got to be the worst kept secret ever, I have known for about a month!

But who am I to announce the news before Lev, he does need the credibility at the moment.

So to all you doubters with yer 'not enough schemes' I have four words for you,

IN YOUR FACE POINDEXTER!!!!

Oh and I might add, Cornby have sold six to our family.

prune

3rd January 2009, 15:56

Normally I wouldn't be interested in this,but if it sells well,then there's no reason Corgi shouldn't make a Stirling,so I'll do the right thing :wacko:

The Defiant Man

3rd January 2009, 17:01

I also agree with you far better to invest in a model that will sell world wide or even better put the money into sorting out its quality control ( 4 New models this Xmas and every one f"*^ked up to some decree) With the financial problems we all will be facing this coming year only the hound would be thinking of bringing out a TSR2 Oh well it would be something of cliché Corgi going out of business making this white elephant which like the failure of prototype lead to the demise of our aircraft industry

Got to agree....and oh the irony if it did go t*ts up......not only because of the cancelled real thing, but because of the clamour for it from people with obviously closer contacts to Corgi than most of us......

CFBC's comments below, however, make interesting reading......

Not sure of quantity to be produced, but I do know of a few suggestions Corgi are bounding around at present regarding quantities and how many issues which will make it very interesting indeed...

It's no SR-71 I know, but does have a following and also if CW are producing 3000 of the fiest Blackbird, then the quantity that Corgi are looking at should be fine. 21 Hours Ago 19:43

.....as it hints at a very low number (overall?)......be interesting to see how they get their tooling costs back if so.....

However.....yep......I'll have one and I look forward to adding it to the collection. Still think it is an unwise move in the current economic climate though.

The Defiant Man

3rd January 2009, 17:10

If you look at the sales of the Airfix kit,20,000 sold out in a matter of weeks,you can see that there is appeal way beyond the normal diecast collector in the UK.Every aviation enthusiast in the UK knows about the TSR.2 and a hell of a lot of them will want one,on a stand sitting on a desk it will look fantastic. If you ever visit Cosford the one aircraft that draws the most attention is the TSR.2,always people round it discussing the history, the museum shop will not be able to get enough of the model, I believe the shop there sold out the kits in around three days.If the model is done right and advertised right this could really turn Corgis fortunes around.I believe XR219 the one that flew should be first and as Agent says be an unlimited release so if needed further runs can be made followed by XR220 and 221 as limited runs working with Cosford and Duxford.I will be getting at least two as I display my models wheels down but the TSR.2 looks so good in flight I will need a clean one as well.

Some good points there Sniper.......totally agree about Cosford, if they can't shift them by the bucketful then there is something wrong.

However, I think the comparison with 20,000 Airfix kits has a couple of flaws......the difference in likely price being one (and whilst I agree that a lot of non-collectors may want one, it is going to be a lot of money for many of them).......the fact that there are a lot more kit builders & collectors than diecast aircraft collectors being another......and whilst I admire your appetite for three, I'll only be having the one that flew......

Red Leader

3rd January 2009, 17:32

I'll definately have one. I think it'll look fantastic on display! I only hope that they don't do a nasty "Halifax" job on it and cram it full of plastic!! I really hope it's made mainly of metal!!

balbrick

4th January 2009, 14:02

Count me in for a couple of these.my attempt at the 1/72 airfix has been a disaster:o .looking forward to the 1/48I might be able to do better with my old sausage fingers.:unsure:

Battlestar

5th January 2009, 04:13

G'Day All

ABOUT TIME! God help Corgi if they stuff it up. Now I know that the price here in Australia will be big, but when Corgi create a good product, I buy it. But I do agree with Red Leader, it better be diecast!

I've already told my mates, who have bombared my supplier with requests for more infomation on the kit itself, I hope that info arrives soon.

I also agree, now lets push for the Arvo Arrow!

Battlestar

Greycap Leader

5th January 2009, 15:02

now lets push for the Arvo Arrow!

Battlestar

Here, here Avro Arrow. Another superb aircraft!!

lmisbtn

5th January 2009, 16:25

lmisbtn

5th January 2009, 16:27

ah man - it's a beast...

check out the gear going up at 1m 30 secs on this vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7JAYHHsVU8&NR=1

Max Reheat

5th January 2009, 17:16

ah man - it's a beast...

check out the gear going up at 1m 30 secs on this vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7JAYHHsVU8&NR=1

Strange use of shots of a dead Lightning (XN771) at the end of that clip for artistic effect :rolleyes:

Craig

5th January 2009, 17:50

Great news - and a bold move from Corgi/Hornby but I think it will sell very well as long as it's up to scratch.

Hope they can cast the nose as one pice so it dosen't have a line round it like the Jag T-2...

Open/closed airbrakes and optional undercarriage bogies for inflight and on the ground would be the icing on the cake.
Yep that would be nice, and would imagine very possible. As for the join lines, the reason for the join on the Jag is to enable the same fuselage mould to be used for the T-Bird and the GR. That's the same reason the T-Bird has two cannon, not one. As I have stated earlier though, only one variant of TSR-2, so no reason for them... ;)

dilligafocau

6th January 2009, 05:19

ah man - it's a beast...

check out the gear going up at 1m 30 secs on this vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7JAYHHsVU8&NR=1

Enjoyed that footage....the soundtrack was quite fitting too, thanks for posting the link lmisbtn :)

lmisbtn

6th January 2009, 10:30

Strange use of shots of a dead Lightning (XN771) at the end of that clip for artistic effect :rolleyes:

Quite odd indeed - maybe it was the mortal remains of the original chase-plane... A two seat Lightning would be great to go with the TSR-2 but Corgi have made my year already so I'll be patient:LOL:

lmisbtn

6th January 2009, 10:46

Yep that would be nice, and would imagine very possible. As for the join lines, the reason for the join on the Jag is to enable the same fuselage mould to be used for the T-Bird and the GR. That's the same reason the T-Bird has two cannon, not one. As I have stated earlier though, only one variant of TSR-2, so no reason for them... ;)

Fingers crossed Craig :) I can live with the Jag T.2 - actually prefer it to any of the GR-1s thus far released - I was blissfully unaware of the cannon mistake until the forum picked up on it. Just hoping they don't throw a curveball/deal-breaker like the VC-10 cockpit.

I must say hats off to Corgi once again. This release shows a previously unsuspected gutsy streak and purpose (there have been plenty of relatively strange releases to date but some of those could be categorised as foolhardy). If the TSR-2 does well I think it will see Corgi cement their proper(?) place as the champion of British diecast aviation despite Stirling (hint, hint) work from HM and others...

sorry to the guys who prefer operational planes but I, for one, am way more excited about the TSR-2 than the SR-71 !!

Dambusters

10th January 2009, 18:08

Bump.

Martin Bull

24th January 2009, 20:41

Well, I think it looks rather :cool: and I shall certainly be buying one - and maybe more than one.....;)

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b380/jgfive/DuxfordMay06024.jpg

CFBC

24th January 2009, 20:45

What.. What's this I hear... MB into Jets? :D

Have to say that photograph looks good! :cool

Martin Bull

24th January 2009, 20:56

No, I haven't suddenly converted to jets...:o ...but TSR-2 looks very beautiful and is at the same time one of those Great British Lost Causes...rather like Bluebird at Coniston......:(

CFBC

24th January 2009, 21:04

No, I haven't suddenly converted to jets...:o ...but TSR-2 looks very beautiful and is at the same time one of those Great British Lost Causes...rather like Bluebird at Coniston......:(

Yeah, but with the country in recession and newer tooling being "looked at" (in terms of bigger moulds), then don't hold your breath is my thoughts!

:( I know, but would rather see a company come out of this mess and bring us one a year or two down the line rather than no company! ;) :)

As for the TSR2. Totally agree... "What a babe" ;)

sniperUK

24th January 2009, 21:09

Probably get through the development stage with a few prototypes then be told they have to trash the tooling and burn the research:( Nice 48th one to build anyway:D

CFBC

24th January 2009, 21:18

Probably get through the development stage with a few prototypes then be told they have to trash the tooling and burn the research:(

Wow, smack's of reality that!

shuttle

24th January 2009, 21:29

Well, my view would be for Corgi to go with this one and say 'stuff the recession'!!!

:D Shuttle

dougieb2

24th January 2009, 21:36

Probably get through the development stage with a few prototypes then be told they have to trash the tooling and burn the research:( Nice 48th one to build anyway:D

Then HM bring out an F111 which we all pre-order but strangely doesn't make it to the UK. Only available in the US and Australia. :)

sniperUK

24th January 2009, 21:41

Then HM bring out an F111 which we all pre-order but strangely doesn't make it to the UK. Only available in the US and Australia. :)

Then GA make Phantom that has to be sent to Aldergrove to be assembled and get British made engines fitted to it then Corgi decide to re-releae the Buccaneer as well.:rolleyes:

dilligafocau

24th January 2009, 21:42

Then HM bring out an F111 which we all pre-order but strangely doesn't make it to the UK. Only available in the US and Australia. :)

Corgi had a Dam Buster Lancaster like that too.....as I remember :LOL:

eismeer

25th January 2009, 02:33

Would be a crying shame to miss out on the TSR2 now that we are this close to getting one:(

Hope Corgi hold their nerve and go for it :cool:

Grim Reaper

1st February 2009, 18:53

I do not know if someone has posted these links before but that aircraft was beautiful in flight and I do not like fast pointy things

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DEiNvasTo1U&annotation_id=annotation_985676&feature=iv

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xQTXwKZvza8&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=r1gdkfghIUI&feature=related

tsr2

1st February 2009, 19:14

Another video :mad: :mad: :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjN3PE4ICj0&feature=related

11SQNLDR

2nd February 2009, 06:23

Another video :mad: :mad: :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjN3PE4ICj0&feature=related

Yikes - a 'snuff' movie:eek: :mad:

dilligafocau

2nd February 2009, 06:39

Would be a crying shame to miss out on the TSR2 now that we are this close to getting one:(

Hope Corgi hold their nerve and go for it :cool:

Latest FT newsletter mentions that the TSR2 is still on track :)

CFBC

2nd February 2009, 08:37

Yes, it's sounding positive indeed and rumous I have straight from the horses mouth are also very good! Keep fingers crossed.... ;) :)

eismeer

2nd February 2009, 21:56

Latest FT newsletter mentions that the TSR2 is still on track :)

Thats more like it, great news:cool:

strix1998

2nd February 2009, 22:37

just hope they are sensible with the pricing............

shuttle

2nd February 2009, 22:54

How much would you pay for one?

:) Shuttle

Aeolus

2nd February 2009, 23:34

I would be willing to pay somewhere between 50-60 pounds tops.

strix1998

3rd February 2009, 07:57

How much would you pay for one?

:) Shuttle

and the devaluation of GBP that it will come in at circa £70.00 although agree that the realistic price (if there can be such a thing in the present business environment) should be no more than £60 tops.................:) :) :)

p-51d

3rd February 2009, 09:07

and the devaluation of GBP that it will come in at circa £70.00 although agree that the realistic price (if there can be such a thing in the present business environment) should be no more than £60 tops.................:) :) :)

If you want a made Airfix kit in a Corgi box then 60 quid it is , if you want a diecast model then i suggest 90 quid or it's lunacy to invest in the mould .

strix1998

3rd February 2009, 09:37

If you want a made Airfix kit in a Corgi box then 60 quid it is , if you want a diecast model then i suggest 90 quid or it's lunacy to invest in the mould .

So if it has an RRP of £90 which in the terms of equating it to say the Les Knight Lanc or FTT that have similar RRPs it would probably be similarly offered at around a price of £70 by discounting sellers.

Think it depends on what they choose to do with the mould (be surprised if the visitor to DX or Cosford is going to splash out £90 on an impulse buy) Might be a case for them offering a discount if you sign up for all three prototypes up front...........but then the case of "what if" schemes comes back into play and whilst these may offend the purist I think given the genuine affection that is held towards what would have undoubtedly been an iconic aircraft that these may also contribute to sales and provide an enhanced return on the initial investment in the mould..............

Agent X20

3rd February 2009, 09:48

I would be willing to pay somewhere between 50-60 pounds tops.

Thats the RRP of a Ju88...:wacko:

If you are wanting one of these it has to be three figures retail..... (no problem with that...)

p-51d

3rd February 2009, 09:49

So if it has an RRP of £90 which in the terms of equating it to say the Les Knight Lanc or FTT that have similar RRPs it would probably be similarly offered at around a price of £70 by discounting sellers.

Think it depends on what they choose to do with the mould (be surprised if the visitor to DX or Cosford is going to splash out £90 on an impulse buy) Might be a case for them offering a discount if you sign up for all three prototypes up front...........but then the case of "what if" schemes comes back into play and whilst these may offend the purist I think given the genuine affection that is held towards what would have undoubtedly been an iconic aircraft that these may also contribute to sales and provide an enhanced return on the initial investment in the mould..............
I think £90 would be the internet price to be honest or it's madness.
If Corgi go down the what-if route , i'll lose what little respect i have for them completely, unless of course they do the legendary Maldivian air taxi nightfighter what-if TSR2.;)

Nimrod48

3rd February 2009, 09:52

If you want a made Airfix kit in a Corgi box then 60 quid it is , if you want a diecast model then i suggest 90 quid or it's lunacy to invest in the mould .

I was thinking around the £90 mark as it will be a large model :)

CFBC

3rd February 2009, 10:08

I was thinking around the £90 mark as it will be a large model :)

That's about the pricing structure I have heard it was/is going to be give or take? ;) :D

Max Reheat

3rd February 2009, 10:21

I was thinking around the £90 mark as it will be a large model :)

Will be approx 3/4 the size of a Blackbird (fag packet estimation) - L: 14¾" x W: 6¼" :cool

CFBC

3rd February 2009, 10:34

Will be approx 3/4 the size of a Blackbird (fag packet estimation) - L: 14¾" x W: 6¼" :cool

And how much is the Blackbird and what is 3/4's of that price in UK£? ;) :D

strix1998

3rd February 2009, 10:46

I think £90 would be the internet price to be honest or it's madness.
If Corgi go down the what-if route , i'll lose what little respect i have for them completely, unless of course they do the legendary Maldivian air taxi nightfighter what-if TSR2.;)

agree with regard to "What ifs" I think TSR2 is a special case. The fact that there are three different what if decal sheets for it in 1/48 demonstrates that there more than a passing interest. Nevertheless appreciate that there is a lot of difference in speculatively producing decals versus producing what if lumps of zinc. Whilst my 1/72 Airfix kit is per prototype am looking forward to my 1/48 desert pink example............:LOL:

Max Reheat

3rd February 2009, 11:04

And how much is the Blackbird and what is 3/4's of that price in UK£? ;) :D

£82.50 from my supplier, but I reckon they'll struggle to get it out for that :(

Aeolus

3rd February 2009, 12:39

If Corgi produces TSR.2 tooling, there is no doubt in my mind that eventually they will produce what-if liveries to compensate costs. Regarding costs comparison with SR-71, TSR.2 surface footprint was about 50 percent less than that of SR-71, and not to mention lower tooling costs that arise from simpler shape and parts number compared to SR-71-the two airplanes are not comparable in real life and thus not in miniature.
To make money Cornby will have to issue at least four liveries and even with the current state of pound and exchange ratios, 80-90 pounds price range seems out of proportions not to use harsher words . Corgi does not have monopoly on this market any more, and even if they do produce state of the art model, which I hope but unfortunately I doubt , overpricing will again prove that such a policy is a disaster to them.

CFBC

3rd February 2009, 12:42

CFBC

3rd February 2009, 12:42

£82.50 from my supplier, but I reckon they'll struggle to get it out for that :(

;) :) Keep your fingers crossed then! :)

strix1998

9th February 2009, 14:10

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc192/johnagray/TSR2.jpg[

Received this decals from Suffolk this morning

2 Coningsby Sea Grey/Dark Green/Gloss White Schemes
1 NASA Scheme
1 Operation Granby Desert Pink Scheme
1 Luftwaffe Scheme
1 RAAF Amberley Scheme

strix1998

9th February 2009, 14:13

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc192/johnagray/TSR2schemes.jpg

Agent X20

9th February 2009, 14:32

All this fantasy stuff...:D .. would the TSR2's therefore still be in service..? :D

strix1998

9th February 2009, 14:45

but on the basis of Phantoms still flying and the RAAF still operating F111s possibly so:) :) :)

chris1966m

9th February 2009, 14:58

what...no USN livery??...would need an arrestor hook ;)

for USN take NA Vigilante markings and decal onto the TSR2 instead ;)

Agent X20

9th February 2009, 15:11

You get one of those off a carrier...??? Vigilante had a far larger wing area....

chris1966m

9th February 2009, 15:32

You get one of those off a carrier...??? Vigilante had a far larger wing area....

catalpults from all the way back at the stern and forward to the bows, for added acceleration :LOL: ...compensating for wing area with velocity

actually all that is the 'carrier' is of british origin...angled deck, landing guide, catapult...heck even the concept of the carrier itself...

...USN just amended the TSR2's wingspan for the catapults they had...and named it Vigilante

just my opinion ;)

Agent X20

9th February 2009, 16:14

Actually you are incorrect.... it would have been cheaper to double the length of the carrier..:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

With folding wings you could have got a couple of hundred TSR2's to a carrier..

I am going for my medication now....:LOL:

DCRanger

9th February 2009, 17:22

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc192/johnagray/TSR2schemes.jpg

So would anybody buy any of the What If schemes if done by Corgi? Op Granby one looks good but what do I know.:D

Nimrod48

10th February 2009, 00:11

So would anybody buy any of the What If schemes if done by Corgi? Op Granby one looks good but what do I know.:D

Schemes 1,2 & 5 for me please :cool :cool :cool :)

The Defiant Man

10th February 2009, 11:36

So would anybody buy any of the What If schemes if done by Corgi?

Nope....just the real one for me, thanks....

tsr2

10th February 2009, 17:36

I'd go for the Empire Test Pilot's School version.

http://www.hyperscale.com/images/X48069.JPG

Agent X20

10th February 2009, 18:04

Naw.. just a white one.....:LOL:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/AgentX20/rubbish/TSR2.jpg

tsr2

10th February 2009, 18:57

Naw.. just a white one.....:LOL:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/AgentX20/rubbish/TSR2.jpg

Does it come with ground crew Agent :)

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh423/tso464/Picture2.jpg

Nimrod48

11th February 2009, 00:09

I'd go for the Empire Test Pilot's School version.

http://www.hyperscale.com/images/X48069.JPG

I think I will have my Airfix 1:72 scale in that scheme :)

p-51d

11th February 2009, 09:20

Naw.. just a white one.....:LOL:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/AgentX20/rubbish/TSR2.jpg

Add floats and sign me up.

CFBC

29th April 2009, 11:38

With the Tsr2 now announced.... Woohooooooo.

With a retail price of around the £80-£85.00 mark sure to be a good seller if produced to a high degree....

AA38601 - TSR2 - XR219, the only prototype to fly - NEW TOOL

Any comments anyone? :)

strix1998

29th April 2009, 12:10

to see whether they will produce "what-if" schemes:)

Agent X20

29th April 2009, 12:11

As there are no variants, this should be 100% metal..... and therefore no trenches.... certainly one to look forward to......:)

RichardPrice

29th April 2009, 12:54

RichardPrice

29th April 2009, 12:55

As there are no variants, this should be 100% metal..... and therefore no trenches.... certainly one to look forward to......:)

Don't count on it, most mould breaks are down to ease of moulding and assembly rather than inclusion of variants.

Nimrod48

29th April 2009, 13:02

I will take two of the first release & then hope for something like a 617sqn & a Raspberry Ripple what if scheme. :)

Agent X20

29th April 2009, 13:12

Don't count on it, most mould breaks are down to ease of moulding and assembly rather than inclusion of variants. Yep but on the basis they will be using one set of bits as against replacement bits for other versions, there will be no excuse for it not to be metal.... I just hope its a darn sight sharper than the likes of the Lightning...

Thunder64

29th April 2009, 13:42

Nimrod48

29th April 2009, 13:50

Lets just hope it doesn't get cancelled! :rolleyes:

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Drew Peacock

29th April 2009, 15:28

I shall take the greatest of pleasure buying this.Excellent!Any pictures up yet?Whens that new catalogue out again?

The Defiant Man

29th April 2009, 17:41

For its size, it's reasonably priced (certainly compared to some of the others in the catalogue).....I'll certainly be having one....and pretty sharpish......really, really hope this one does well......

Battlestar

1st May 2009, 12:09

Craig

1st May 2009, 12:47

I'm very happy with the pictures I've seen of the Corgi TSR-2 at Flying Tigers!
This will be just like the CW Blackbird. Costly, hard to get, but worth the time and effort and money just to own it!:D

Battlestar
To be honest, I really don't think this one is costly, with a purchase price around the £75-£80 mark I think it's excellent value for money.

Red 2

1st May 2009, 13:48

And less expensive than some of us thought it might be!