Dorniers Vs Bader's Big Wing

[david cotton]

Just been reading Alfred Prices book " Battle Of Britain Day" , and a fine read it is to :)

The bit that interested me most was the raid by 25 Dorniers, in the morning, on London.

The Dorniers were escorted up to London and most of the way back. However, over London they were unescorted and hit by over 120 Spitfires and Hurricanes. 55 of these were from the Bader Big Wing.

To me should of been the end of all 25 Dorniers. Mediem Bombers, daylight and 120 plus fighters coming at them.....I would not like to put money on any of the Dorniers making it back alive :eek:

However, the total number of Dorniers shot down during this entire raid was.......6 :eek:

In total, the raid had been hit by about 250 British fighters, and only 6 were destroyed. I find this incredible :wacko:

[prune]

Impo it shows how poor the British fighters armament was at this time,many German bombers got back riddled with holes.
It has also been said only a small percentage of RAF pilots were good shots,most of them opened fire too far out of range.
One of Dizzy Allens books makes some good points about this,when they started to look closely at gunnery results after the Battle of Britain.

[Shamrock]

Despite the very poor performance of the .303s Bader persisted in having his MkV spitfire as the A model with eight .303s as he distrusted the cannons. The German aces called the .303 and 7.92MM guns door knockers. I've just finished Joannes Steinhoff's book about ME109Fs over Sicily trying to down B-17s and B-24s with two 7.92s and I X 20MM cannon. The amount of gunnery practice given to RAF pilots was miniscule and all the the top scoring aces said that the only way to get your kill was to close within 50yards or less and blow his **** off!:D

[minter]

Just been reading Alfred Prices book " Battle Of Britain Day" , and a fine read it is to :)

The bit that interested me most was the raid by 25 Dorniers, in the morning, on London.

The Dorniers were escorted up to London and most of the way back. However, over London they were unescorted and hit by over 120 Spitfires and Hurricanes. 55 of these were from the Bader Big Wing.

To me should of been the end of all 25 Dorniers. Mediem Bombers, daylight and 120 plus fighters coming at them.....I would not like to put money on any of the Dorniers making it back alive :eek:

However, the total number of Dorniers shot down during this entire raid was.......6 :eek:

In total, the raid had been hit by about 250 British fighters, and only 6 were destroyed. I find this incredible :wacko:

there was probably too many fighters, get getting in each others way

[Garethster]

One question that stands out for me is - how many of the Dorniers actually made it to their targets and had successful bomb runs? Surely that would be a good measure of how effective was the defence put up by Bader's Big Wing.

[von hitchofen]

there was probably too many fighters, get getting in each others way

too right....
the Bader wing's only purpose in the BoB was in terms of morale - eg Ludwig Franzisket saying in a world-weary voice over the R/T
"oh hear they come, the last fifty Spitfires" ;)

the Bader wing took ages to form up, rarely stayed together as a formation and once attacked a Ju88 formation, claiming thirty shot down - all the aircraft from the unit concerned returned safely

[Pilgrim_uk]

Surely all the fighters couldn't be attacking the Bombers some must have been giving top cover. Did the poor training also mean gun convergences where either to far or too close? remember reading somewhere about this. Rookies keeping there finger on the trigger blowing there lot in 6 secs ( ooerr missus).

If that was 1944 and a day light raid i wonder how different it would be?

[Cardinal]

I really don't intend offending anyone and this is only my opinion (that I would actually like to be proved wrong) - Douglas Bader was clearly a courageous individual who overcame considerable adversity, but in many respects the 'myth' was perhaps greater than the reality, both in substance and practice ...

[IWM2]

Fair point Cardinal. I think he was an amazing man, a good pilot (he did get 22 kills - that can't have been luck), and clearly an inspirational leader. But I think for defensive actions (not offensive fighter sweeps over Europe), Leigh Mallorys big wing theories didn't work in practice, took too long to form up. Did Bader support them through friendship and loyalty?

[Angels one-five]

I don't think we should be too surprised at the kill ratios. There is a danger of viewing the bomber as a helpless target, just waiting for the plucky fighter pilot to pick him off and then move onto the next target. Bombers flew in formations and had defensive armaments which provided overlapping and interlocking arcs of fire. As an attacker you would have to negotiate the streams of tracer coming in at you from a variety of angles, being careful not to fly a steady course for too long and all the while keeping a lookout in case enemy fighters are waiting to bounce you... Add in to that the lack of gunnery practice, the poor armour penetration of the .303 round and the sheer difficulty of hitting a moving target from a moving aircraft and all whilst being shot at... not as straightforward as the force ratios might suggest.

[shuttle]

The ultimate bottom line is that the Germans gave up - they could not sustain the offensive and when they switched to night bombing the threat of invasion was over. This can only be put down to the fact that our defences were capable of thwarting the Luftwaffe because the RAF were well organised and had very effective command and control and could maximise fighter resources.

:) Shuttle

[Garethster]

Fair point Cardinal. I think he was an amazing man, a good pilot (he did get 22 kills - that can't have been luck), and clearly an inspirational leader. But I think for defensive actions (not offensive fighter sweeps over Europe), Leigh Mallorys big wing theories didn't work in practice, took too long to form up. Did Bader support them through friendship and loyalty?

Seems to me I read somewhere that Bader had a bit of an advantage being legless in air combat - apparently he could pull higher G's than his adversaries because the blood in his system did not have as far to flow and therefore he could maintain a lower heart rate thus avoiding blackouts....

[minter]

I really don't intend offending anyone and this is only my opinion (that I would actually like to be proved wrong) - Douglas Bader was clearly a courageous individual who overcame considerable adversity, but in many respects the 'myth' was perhaps greater than the reality, both in substance and practice ...

there was a documentary about him once, which pointed to the fact that he wasnt very nice to the groundcrews, and he had a pilot posted cos he was shot down, (his face probably didnt fit), but baders record is there for all to see, you dont win wars by being nice i guess

[david cotton]

One question that stands out for me is - how many of the Dorniers actually made it to their targets and had successful bomb runs? Surely that would be a good measure of how effective was the defence put up by Bader's Big Wing.

The formation was not broken :eek: They bombed in good order and withdrew in good order. 4 other bombers were damaged and knocked out of formation, but got home on their own :eek:


During 1941, when the British went on the offensive, the Bristish used mass fighter formations to escort small groups of bombers. The Germans then used the same tatic as Park. feeding in small groups of fighters from all directions.

Later , against the US Daylight Bomber formations, the Germans used to mass the attacking aircraft to hit from the front, and then try and come round again for another go. The Pre-war RAF formation attack idea were not a success for the RAF, but in a way the Germans developed an attack that was similar. :unsure:

[scott]

Just been reading Alfred Prices book " Battle Of Britain Day" , and a fine read it is to :)

The bit that interested me most was the raid by 25 Dorniers, in the morning, on London.

The Dorniers were escorted up to London and most of the way back. However, over London they were unescorted and hit by over 120 Spitfires and Hurricanes. 55 of these were from the Bader Big Wing.

To me should of been the end of all 25 Dorniers. Mediem Bombers, daylight and 120 plus fighters coming at them.....I would not like to put money on any of the Dorniers making it back alive :eek:

However, the total number of Dorniers shot down during this entire raid was.......6 :eek:

In total, the raid had been hit by about 250 British fighters, and only 6 were destroyed. I find this incredible :wacko:

Would this be the raid of 15th september ?
I am reading Fighter Boys by Patrick Bishop and have just got to this bit and dont quote me on this but they only shot down 6 but sent the rest back with lots of holes in and was there not some fighter cover also provided early and late on ?

[david cotton]

Would this be the raid of 15th september ?
I am reading Fighter Boys by Patrick Bishop and have just got to this bit and dont quote me on this but they only shot down 6 but sent the rest back with lots of holes in and was there not some fighter cover also provided early and late on ?

It was 15 September 1940. As per line 3 of my post, fighter cover was provided up to and back from London. However, over London the Big Wing and other squadrons caught them unescorted.

The Do17's were badley shot up, but they did not go down.

I think the failure to shoot down more shows that you need to have a plan of what to do, once joined in Battle. Bader said that all that mattered was getting a large group of fighters into the attack and I think this day proved him wrong :eek:

On this raid, the Aircraft that went down, were under attack from many fighters almost until they hit the ground. Only a few fighters should of finished off an aircraft that was seperated, the rest should of continued attacking the main formation and tried to break it up. :)

[Martin Bull]

There is a danger of viewing the bomber as a helpless target, just waiting for the plucky fighter pilot to pick him off and then move onto the next target.

Good point. Many RAF memoirs give credit to the Luftwaffe air gunners who caught out some of the best RAF pilots ( Ginger Lacey, for instance ).

I think that, to effectively bring bombers down, explosive shells were needed. The Germans were on the right track later in the war with the various MGFF/151 20mm shells and finally the 3-cm cannon which was very effective indeed.

[von hitchofen]

would have been useful to have working Hispano-Suiza 20 mm cannons during the Battle, but alas it was not to be. the Spitfire Ib's issued to 19 Sqn were notoriously unreliable and were withdrawn, but I believe 151 Sqn had a Hurri with two 20mm cannon which was more successful

if I remember correctly some improved cannon-armed Spits were issued to 92 Sqn November 1940 - but they still had teething problems even then...

[Agent X20]

Just finished Spitfire Portrait of a Legend by McKinstry whilst on holiday... thoughtful peep had it on their bookshelf - excellent all round read, okay other books are more detailed in other areas, one of the interesting bits was the evolution of the armament of the fighters of that era and thoughts various from the participants at that time as to their effectiveness of the weapon and the ranges involved..

...in one way we were lucky that they did up the spec otherwise the Spitfire would have ended up with 4 x 303..:wacko: as per the spec before that which culminated in the Gladiator.. :unsure:

[johnnyboy]

there was a documentary about him once, which pointed to the fact that he wasnt very nice to the groundcrews, and he had a pilot posted cos he was shot down, (his face probably didnt fit), but baders record is there for all to see, you dont win wars by being nice i guess

Many years ago I worked with a chap who was on ground crew at Tangmere when Bader was there, He told me that it was not only the erks that hated him and that after he was shot down a group of pilots went to the pub to celebrate the fact that he had gone:wacko:

[Garethster]

Many years ago I worked with a chap who was on ground crew at Tangmere when Bader was there, He told me that it was not only the erks that hated him and that after he was shot down a group of pilots went to the pub to celebrate the fact that he had gone:wacko:

I read Bader's book "Reach for the Sky" many years ago and got the sense he could be a little shall we say...intolerant, obnoxious and obstreperous at times :) A good read just the same.

[chally2]

A good read just the same.

As is this thread:)

[david cotton]

would have been useful to have working Hispano-Suiza 20 mm cannons during the Battle, but alas it was not to be. the Spitfire Ib's issued to 19 Sqn were notoriously unreliable and were withdrawn, but I believe 151 Sqn had a Hurri with two 20mm cannon which was more successful

if I remember correctly some improved cannon-armed Spits were issued to 92 Sqn November 1940 - but they still had teething problems even then...


It is a shame that they could not of fitted some 50 cal's. The US pilots seemed to do fine with 6 of these.:)

In the Book "Battle Of Britain Day" the author does comment that the Big Wing was not as effective as a lot of people think. The number of kills was very low, considering the number of fighters involved.

However, the psychological effect on the German Luftwaffe was devastating. They thought the RAF was about to collapse and then they turn up in larger numbers than they had ever seen before. :)

[prune]

I read Bader's book "Reach for the Sky" many years ago and got the sense he could be a little shall we say...intolerant, obnoxious and obstreperous at times :) A good read just the same.

The documentary about Bader shown a few years ago was mainly about how disliked he was,especially in Colditz ,where his 'Goon' baiting antics pissed off a lot of the other POWs.
Thing that made me laugh out loud was the story about his un-official Batman,a little Scots guy who would carry Bader up and down the stairs to and from his bath,
Bader left Colditz before the little guy,and he didn't hear from Bader again until after the war, when Bader phoned him up.
You might think Bader would thank him for his help, instead he asked if he had brought his spare pair of legs back.
The guy said he had not,Bader called him a c**t and slammed the phone down on him:LOL:

[Angels one-five]

Many years ago I worked with a chap who was on ground crew at Tangmere when Bader was there, He told me that it was not only the erks that hated him and that after he was shot down a group of pilots went to the pub to celebrate the fact that he had gone:wacko:


But remember, leadership is not a popularity contest... What is important is that despite his foibles and failings, Bader got a great number of people to follow him and very much led from the front.

[Cardinal]

But remember, leadership is not a popularity contest... What is important is that despite his foibles and failings, Bader got a great number of people to follow him and very much led from the front.


Perhaps, but leadership is also about setting an example to those whom you lead so that they are willing to support you irrespective of the difficulty of the circumstances.

Although not a popularity contest, caring and having empathy for those whom you 'serve' as a leader is what separates true leadership from the 'illusion' of leadership. Manfred von Richthofen (Red Baron) and Erwin Rommel, for example, had reputations for 'caring' for those under their command and received their total loyalty in return - there are many such examples of inspirational leadership throughout history as well as those whose so-called 'leadership' was driven by their own arrogance and ego, without much though to their 'followers'.

[Angels one-five]

Perhaps, but leadership is also about setting an example to those whom you lead so that they are willing to support you irrespective of the difficulty of the circumstances.

Although not a popularity contest, caring and having empathy for those whom you 'serve' as a leader is what separates true leadership from the 'illusion' of leadership. Manfred von Richthofen (Red Baron) and Erwin Rommel, for example, had reputations for 'caring' for those under their command and received their total loyalty in return - there are many such examples of inspirational leadership throughout history as well as those whose so-called 'leadership' was driven by their own arrogance and ego, without much though to their 'followers'.

All true - but there is no 'universal' leadership model. Was he successful as a leader despite his failings? Did he inspire people to do greater things? Did he lead by example in combat?

Leadership is a subject I am deeply interested in and in the majority of leadership case studies, you can identify failings of one sort or another. I consider Nelson to be one of the finest examples of leadership by dint of his faith in subordinates, clear direction and sense of responsibility to his people. BUT, look at him as an example of personal example and there are alley cats with higher morals... The best example I have found as the 'ideal' leader (if there really is such a thing) is Bill Slim; for anyone who is remotely interested in the whole dynamic of leadership in conflict, "Defeat into Victory" is a must read.

[Pilgrim_uk]

Very interesting chap that William Slim.

[david cotton]

Bob Tuck and Johnny Johnson were also tough leaders. When you read their books, you can see that they don't have much time for any one who showed weakness.

I think these men were true hunters, and war was a natural environment for them.

[sniperUK]

Lots of tough leaders but there is a difference between being tough and being obnoxious,look at Blair "Paddy" Mayne no nonsense,violent temper,didn't suffer fools at all but treated his men well,looked after them ,and they would have followed him into hell and back and did.Everything I have heard about Bader was that the only person he cared about was Bader and he would trample over anybody to get what he wanted and treated most like dirt.

[david cotton]

In fly for your life, Tuck is very hard on 2 pilots who are battle shy. I have been looking at the book "Men Of The Battle Of Britain" and trying to work out who they were :unsure: can't decide yet :o

I remember in Wing Leader, Johnson was very hard nosed about a pilot who went down in flames. The poor bugger was stuck in his cockpit and screaming over the radio as he went down , and Johnson thought him a wretch :eek: ....I would of been screaming to ....and probably twice as load :o

[Sailor.]

Johnson thought him a wretch :eek: ....
Presumebly then, JEJ would have sizzled all the way down while singing a chorus of 'Land Of Hope And Glory'?
'Bader's Duxford Fighters' gives a spendid insight into the perabulations of the 'Big Wing'.

[david cotton]

Bader's Duxford Fighters' gives a spendid insight into the perabulations of the 'Big Wing'.
Ah yes the perabulations :rolleyes: .....just what the F*ck are perabulations :unsure:

[Cardinal]

"Perambulations" had me running for the dictionary - 'to walk about' (therefore 'perambulator' = pram) ... ??? :unsure: :o :LOL:

[Cardinal]

Perhaps, but leadership is also about setting an example to those whom you lead so that they are willing to support you irrespective of the difficulty of the circumstances.

Although not a popularity contest, caring and having empathy for those whom you 'serve' as a leader is what separates true leadership from the 'illusion' of leadership. Manfred von Richthofen (Red Baron) and Erwin Rommel, for example, had reputations for 'caring' for those under their command and received their total loyalty in return - there are many such examples of inspirational leadership throughout history as well as those whose so-called 'leadership' was driven by their own arrogance and ego, without much though to their 'followers'.

All true - but there is no 'universal' leadership model. Was he successful as a leader despite his failings? Did he inspire people to do greater things? Did he lead by example in combat?

Leadership is a subject I am deeply interested in and in the majority of leadership case studies, you can identify failings of one sort or another. I consider Nelson to be one of the finest examples of leadership by dint of his faith in subordinates, clear direction and sense of responsibility to his people. BUT, look at him as an example of personal example and there are alley cats with higher morals... The best example I have found as the 'ideal' leader (if there really is such a thing) is Bill Slim; for anyone who is remotely interested in the whole dynamic of leadership in conflict, "Defeat into Victory" is a must read.


You're correct Angels1-5, there is no universal leadership model as there are just too many variables involved including those that are psychological, spatial and temporal :D.

In many respects my comments were relating to leadership behaviour that I regard as being a benchmark for the practice of 'inspirational' leadership that is balanced with a sense of authority, fairness and sincere concern for one's 'followers'.

When looking at popular culture, I'm of the opinion that the concept of 'exemplary' leadership is personified by the character of Captain Catherine Janeway in the Voyager series where any leadership flaws are far outweighed by the positive aspects found in the character ... (and yes, Science-Fiction is an acceptable tool for teaching and understanding the essence of 'good' leadership :o :D.)

[dilligafocau]

You're correct Angels1-5, there is no universal leadership model as there are just too many variables involved including those that are psychological, spatial and temporal :D.

In many respects my comments were relating to leadership behaviour that I regard as being a benchmark for the practice of 'inspirational' leadership that is balanced with a sense of authority, fairness and sincere concern for one's 'followers'.

When looking at popular culture, I'm of the opinion that the concept of 'exemplary' leadership is personified by the character of Captain Catherine Janeway in the Voyager series where any leadership flaws are far outweighed by the positive aspects found in the character ... (and yes, Science-Fiction is an acceptable tool for teaching and understanding the essence of 'good' leadership :o :D.)

You are correct Cardinal, 7 of 9 also had a couple of positive aspects I could name....Id gladly follow her anywhere ;)

[Cardinal]

You are correct Cardinal, 7 of 9 also had a couple of positive aspects I could name....Id gladly follow her anywhere ;)

Take a number ... :LOL:

[minter]

Perhaps, but leadership is also about setting an example to those whom you lead so that they are willing to support you irrespective of the difficulty of the circumstances.

Although not a popularity contest, caring and having empathy for those whom you 'serve' as a leader is what separates true leadership from the 'illusion' of leadership. Manfred von Richthofen (Red Baron) and Erwin Rommel, for example, had reputations for 'caring' for those under their command and received their total loyalty in return - there are many such examples of inspirational leadership throughout history

Leonard Cheshire maybe ?

[shuttle]

I would add Victor Beamish, David Stirling and John Howard to this list - there are many more. Whatever your thoughts about Bader, you cannot deny he possessed pure courage. How many people would have just given up after such a horrific accident? It must be also noted he did much post war for charity. He is still a true hero in my book.

:) Shuttle